Two heaters with Profilux 4

BCSreef · Mar 7, 2017

d2mini said:
Interesting debate.

The way I see it is, I have two heaters for redundancy. One is probably enough to keep the temp stable. So why have two coming on, using twice the power, since like you say, they are pretty high wattage.
Is two on for a short period different than one for a longer period? That I don't know.

As far as failure goes, our house drops down into the 60's at night. I'm not comfortable with that temp for my reef.

So I just want one heater to run the majority of the time and if it fails or can't keep up, the second will kick on.
Maybe there is a way to use Programmable Logic to have the second kick on after the first has been running for a certain time period to help with efficiency?

Thought I would post this from Bean Animal: http://www.beananimal.com/articles/aquarium-heaters-what-you-need-to-know!.aspx

Good explanation for using multiple heaters, redundant controllers and other items of heater interest including why thermostats are unreliable.

Bob

Member No 1 · Mar 24, 2020

Ok, go easy on me, I'm still learning this programing.
Setting up 2 heaters to alternate 12hr each and the heater at "rest" will kick in if the temp
drops to low (1 degree) below the set point.
This is how my current tank is run. It's using the orange/grey controller. It works well. One heater will keep the tank at temp, and if it can't keep up, the second will kick in.

So this is my programing in the P4. Please let me know if it looks correct, thanks.
2 Heaters
One runs 12:00 am - 12:00pm Set to Timer 1
One runs 12:00pm - 12:00am Set to Timer 2

2 Temp sensors
Temp 1
Normal Value 26.0
Cooling 0.6
Hysteresis 0.15
Operation mode controller
Control Pulse Variable
Off durning Feed No
Pulse 00:10:00
Pause 00:01:00

Temp 2 Virtual
Normal Value 26.0
Cooling 0.6
Hysteresis 0.71 - ONLY DIFFERENCE FROM TEMP 1
Operation mode controller
Control Pulse Variable
Off durning Feed No
Pulse 00:10:00
Pause 00:01:00

Programing:

Gate	Function	Input 1	Input 2	Time	Description in Profilux
4	AND	General Alarm INVERTED	Temperature 1 Heater	-	Heat OFF with ALARM
5	AND	G4	Timer 1
6	AND	G4	Timer 2
7	OR	G5	Temperature 2 Heater		Heater 1
8	OR	G6	Temperature 2 Heater		Heater 2

The two heaters are on sockets 1 & 2.
Socket 1 set to G7
Socket 2 set to G8

Dr. Jim · Mar 24, 2020

You mentioned that you have 2 heaters in your sump. If you lose your Return Pump for some reason, your tank has no heat. I have 1 heater in the tank and 1 in the sump. They both have internal thermostats and I fine-tuned them for 77 F. If one goes too high then the socket shuts off. If one fails to come on, then at least I have a second one working. (It is unlikely that both will fail at the same time).

Also, by doing it this way, you don't have the outlets constantly and frequently switching off and on. I also plug the two heaters in separate Power Bars in case something happens to one of the Power Bars.

The heater in the sump is set to shut off any time the Return Pump is stopped (e.g. during Maintenance mode).

Michael Gray · Mar 25, 2020

I bought two Jager heaters with intentions of putting in 2. But I only use one and other is in mixing station. That being said I plan on replacing it every 12 months for a piece of mind and not push it.

Lasse · Mar 25, 2020

Why do you want them alternating? Just curious.

IMO - you need a line for general alarm (inverted) and temperature 2 heater and therefore something like this

Gate	Function	Input 1	Input 2	Time	Description in Profilux
4	AND	General Alarm INVERTED	Temperature 1 Heater	-	Heat OFF with ALARM
5	AND	G4	Timer 1
6	AND	G4	Timer 2
7	AND	General Alarm INVERTED	Temperature 2 Heater		Heat OFF with ALARM
8	OR	G5	G7		Heater 1
9	OR	G6	G7		Heater 2

I have done similar programming with two heaters there the second kicks in if the first does not manage to rise the temperature. Bu I do not use hysteresis for that - I set a different nominal value instead with the same hysteresis. The problem with your settings (IMO - I have not tested) will be that Heather 2 will run after Heather 1 have turned off. If that's not enough with heather 2 - temp will go down and heater 1 kick in again. It will be the hysteresis of Heater 2 that determines your temperature in the long run IMO.

I can see that you have discover the beauty of the pulse variable function. I have my heater in the same sump compartment as the temp sensor (around 35 l) Flow through it is around 2 500 l/h. Therefore - I have a short pause (30 sec) and rather long pulse (max 6 minutes)

My way of doing it would be something like this

2 Heaters
One runs 12:00 am - 12:00pm Set to Timer 1
One runs 12:00pm - 12:00am Set to Timer 2

2 Temp sensors
Temp 1
Normal Value 26.0
Cooling 0
Hysteresis 0.15
Operation mode controller
Control Pulse Variable
Off durning Feed No
Pulse 00:10:00
Pause 00:01:00

Temp 2 Virtual
Normal Value 25,9
Cooling 0
Hysteresis 0.15
Operation mode controller
Control Pulse Variable
Off durning Feed No
Pulse 00:10:00
Pause 00:01:00

The pulse and paus depends of your volume of sump apartment and the flow through it - you have to fine tune this. In this scenario - the sensor and heaters must be in the same apartment of the sump - otherwise there is a risk for boiling in that part there the heater is if flow disappear.

I would also have a 10 minutes delay for actual sockets if the contact with the main unit disappear and suddenly comeback

Here is my DT temperature for the last month - nominal value 25 C - only 1 heather

Hope this will help you - I have not tested this - but maybe you get some ideas from it.

Sincerely Lasse

Member No 1 · Mar 25, 2020

Lasse said:
Why do you want them alternating? Just curious. See my comment below.

IMO - you need a line for general alarm (inverted) and temperature 2 heater and therefore something like this
I would have thought because G5 & G6 use G4, and that G7 & G8 use G5 & G6, I would need to do it like you are showing below. Can you explain why I would need to do it this way? That's why I posted this question, to learn.

Gate Function Input 1 Input 2 Time Description in Profilux
4 AND General Alarm INVERTED Temperature 1 Heater - Heat OFF with ALARM
5 AND G4 Timer 1
6 AND G4 Timer 2
7 AND General Alarm INVERTED Temperature 2 Heater Heat OFF with ALARM
8 OR G5 G7 Heater 1
9 OR G6 G7 Heater 2

I have done similar programming with two heaters there the second kicks in if the first does not manage to rise the temperature. Bu I do not use hysteresis for that - I set a different nominal value instead with the same hysteresis. The problem with your settings (IMO - I have not tested) will be that Heather 2 will run after Heather 1 have turned off. If that's not enough with heather 2 - temp will go down and heater 1 kick in again. It will be the hysteresis of Heater 2 that determines your temperature in the long run IMO.
I understand what you are saying, I will change the values on Temp 2 (virtual) as you have shown below.

I can see that you have discover the beauty of the pulse variable function. I have my heater in the same sump compartment as the temp sensor (around 35 l) Flow through it is around 2 500 l/h. Therefore - I have a short pause (30 sec) and rather long pulse (max 6 minutes)

My way of doing it would be something like this

2 Heaters
One runs 12:00 am - 12:00pm Set to Timer 1
One runs 12:00pm - 12:00am Set to Timer 2

2 Temp sensors
Temp 1
Normal Value 26.0
Cooling 0
Hysteresis 0.15
Operation mode controller
Control Pulse Variable
Off during Feed No
Pulse 00:10:00
Pause 00:01:00

Temp 2 Virtual
Normal Value 25,9
Cooling 0
Hysteresis 0.15
Operation mode controller
Control Pulse Variable
Off during Feed No
Pulse 00:10:00
Pause 00:01:00

The pulse and paus depends of your volume of sump apartment and the flow through it - you have to fine tune this. In this scenario - the sensor and heaters must be in the same apartment of the sump - otherwise there is a risk for boiling in that part there the heater is if flow disappear. The temp probe and heaters are in the same area, but not to close to each other. I will adjust these as needed.

I would also have a 10 minutes delay for actual sockets if the contact with the main unit disappear and suddenly comeback I do have this programmed.

Here is my DT temperature for the last month - nominal value 25 C - only 1 heather

Hope this will help you - I have not tested this - but maybe you get some ideas from it.

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse,
Thanks for the reply. I was hoping you would chime in.
To answer your first question, I have (2) 300w Finnex Titanium heaters w/o control in a 120g tank 30g sump system for redundancy. 1 heater will keep my temp steady but not over heat in case of a stuck on condition. However, I don't want to have (1) heater do all the work all the time, while the other waits in backup mode. So by staggering the heating duties over the course of the day to 12hrs each, I reduce the wear on one heater by 50%. Hope that makes sense.

I've added some comment to your original reply.
Presently the P4 is running mirrored to my current controller, and is not controlling the tank in any way. The probes are installed, but for monitoring only. Once I'm confident with the programming and control, I'll take the current controller off line and the P4 will go on line. I am only 1 week with the P4, so i want to be 100% i understand the new programming language.
I will set up a 5gal bucket with the temp probe and (2) heater, and see how well it works.
I will keep you posted. Thanks for the advise and help.

Lasse · Mar 25, 2020

I would have thought because G5 & G6 use G4, and that G7 & G8 use G5 & G6, I would need to do it like you are showing below. Can you explain why I would need to do it this way? That's why I posted this question, to learn.

It was a spinal reflex

IMO - Because of the or argument - If not G5 or G6 is valid - temperature 2 will chime in in spite of alarm or not. I can be wrong but I do not think so

Sincerely Lasse

Member No 1 · Mar 25, 2020

Lasse said:
It was a spinal reflex

IMO - Because of the or argument - If not G5 or G6 is valid - temperature 2 will chime in in spite of alarm or not. I can be wrong but I do not think so

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks, I will be testing both scenarios this weekend.

TigerReef · Apr 15, 2021

Lasse said:
Why do you want them alternating? Just curious.

IMO - you need a line for general alarm (inverted) and temperature 2 heater and therefore something like this

Gate Function Input 1 Input 2 Time Description in Profilux
4 AND General Alarm INVERTED Temperature 1 Heater - Heat OFF with ALARM
5 AND G4 Timer 1
6 AND G4 Timer 2
7 AND General Alarm INVERTED Temperature 2 Heater Heat OFF with ALARM
8 OR G5 G7 Heater 1
9 OR G6 G7 Heater 2

I have done similar programming with two heaters there the second kicks in if the first does not manage to rise the temperature. Bu I do not use hysteresis for that - I set a different nominal value instead with the same hysteresis. The problem with your settings (IMO - I have not tested) will be that Heather 2 will run after Heather 1 have turned off. If that's not enough with heather 2 - temp will go down and heater 1 kick in again. It will be the hysteresis of Heater 2 that determines your temperature in the long run IMO.

I can see that you have discover the beauty of the pulse variable function. I have my heater in the same sump compartment as the temp sensor (around 35 l) Flow through it is around 2 500 l/h. Therefore - I have a short pause (30 sec) and rather long pulse (max 6 minutes)

My way of doing it would be something like this

2 Heaters
One runs 12:00 am - 12:00pm Set to Timer 1
One runs 12:00pm - 12:00am Set to Timer 2

2 Temp sensors
Temp 1
Normal Value 26.0
Cooling 0
Hysteresis 0.15
Operation mode controller
Control Pulse Variable
Off durning Feed No
Pulse 00:10:00
Pause 00:01:00

Temp 2 Virtual
Normal Value 25,9
Cooling 0
Hysteresis 0.15
Operation mode controller
Control Pulse Variable
Off durning Feed No
Pulse 00:10:00
Pause 00:01:00

The pulse and paus depends of your volume of sump apartment and the flow through it - you have to fine tune this. In this scenario - the sensor and heaters must be in the same apartment of the sump - otherwise there is a risk for boiling in that part there the heater is if flow disappear.

I would also have a 10 minutes delay for actual sockets if the contact with the main unit disappear and suddenly comeback

Here is my DT temperature for the last month - nominal value 25 C - only 1 heather

Hope this will help you - I have not tested this - but maybe you get some ideas from it.

Sincerely Lasse

Hello Lasse,
Tack så mycket för all din instruktion och användbar information!

I have created the virtual temperature 2 sensor in P4. Does this look correct to you:

and the created the Timer 1 and Timer 2 rules:

I feel like I am missing an additional programming step?

Thank you again for all of you guidance along my GHL journey. I am so excited for all of the functions of my P4 and am ‘all in’ with GHL.

TigerReef · Apr 16, 2021

TigerReef said:
Hello Lasse,
Tack så mycket för all din instruktion och användbar information!

I have created the virtual temperature 2 sensor in P4. Does this look correct to you:

and the created the Timer 1 and Timer 2 rules:

I feel like I am missing an additional programming step?

Thank you again for all of you guidance along my GHL journey. I am so excited for all of the functions of my P4 and am ‘all in’ with GHL.

I think I was missing the Program able Logic:

Lasse · Apr 16, 2021

I´ll think it will work out

If you put G5 to heather 1:s switch channel and G6 to heather 2:s switch channel - you will have the following scenario

G5 means that you will regulate heater 1 around 77.80 during the period 12 AM to 12 PM if there is no alarm . However if your temperature will go down to around 78,62 during this time - heater 2 will chime in (the or G4 argument in G6)

G6 means that you will regulate heater 2 around 77.80 during the period 12 PM to 12 AM if there is no alarm . However if your temperature will go down to around 78,62 during this time - heater 1 will chime in (the or G4 argument in G5)

Everything will work like this if the nominal value for temp 2 is lower than the nominal temperature for temp 1. Maybe I should prefer to use 78.50 as nominal value for temp 2 but test it out

Sincerely Lasse

TigerReef · Apr 16, 2021

Lasse said:
I´ll think it will work out

If you put G5 to heather 1:s switch channel and G6 to heather 2:s switch channel - you will have the following scenario

G5 means that you will regulate heater 1 around 77.80 during the period 12 AM to 12 PM if there is no alarm . However if your temperature will go down to around 78,62 during this time - heater 2 will chime in (the or G4 argument in G6)

G6 means that you will regulate heater 2 around 77.80 during the period 12 PM to 12 AM if there is no alarm . However if your temperature will go down to around 78,62 during this time - heater 1 will chime in (the or G4 argument in G5)

Everything will work like this if the nominal value for temp 2 is lower than the nominal temperature for temp 1. Maybe I should prefer to use 78.50 as nominal value for temp 2 but test it out

Sincerely Lasse