two pumps too much? microbubble problem.

[Kworker]

So I decided upon two pumps over one so if one fails I still have circulation.

I have 700gph gl*******s overflow 2 Rio pumps that are rated at 352 gph @ 4ft There are 3 90 degree elbows and 1 45 on each return

The drain line is 1 1/2" and splits off with a T at the bottom , most of the water to the section wih filtersock and the rest to the area where the skimmer is.

When I have one pump running there really is no microbubbles, when two are on it multiplies drastically.. anyone have recommendations?

 

[skinz78]

Can you post pic's of your sump?

 

[scooterc268]

1st make sure there isn't a whirl pool effect. Pump is sucking air if so. If this is the case, increase water volume in sump but make sure there is room for when there is a power outage.

It could be a lot of flow and the micro bubbles have no time to evacuate from the sump (not enough baffles). Had the same issue with 2700gph flowing through mine. I bought some Eshopps foam (used in their sumps) to catch the micro bubbles. Works like a charm except it needs weekly cleaning...depending on the debris it catches.


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[Kworker]

I know it's currently not from a whirlpool effect it's happened before and made it worse I've prevented that since than. I also completely PVC glued the entire return so there is no air leak into it.

My setup is in beginning of my build thread. I can't post pics I'm on my phone but here's link to my thread

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/member-tanks/94885-kcs-55gal.html

 

[skinz78]

Is this how you have your sump set up now? If so that is the problem. Your drain should be on one side, then the skimmer in the middle and the return pumps on the opposite side of the drain.

My drain from the tank will be in the Right portion, return pumps in the middle and protein skimmer in the right portion. My skimmer is rated for 250gph so i T'd off my drain from the DT and placed a ball valve to control flow into where the skimmer is. (octopus 110nw)

 

[mcarroll]

Is this how you have your sump set up now? If so that is the problem. Your drain should be on one side, then the skimmer in the middle and the return pumps on the opposite side of the drain.

Agreed!

To the OP:

Also, if only one pump does it (not the other), that may indicate a leak in your plumbing where air is being drawn into the waterflow via the venturi effect.

Easy to test - just try with both pumps one at a time as the "only pump running". If the problem does not occur when either pump is the only one running - but does when both pumps run, then I think Skinz has nailed it in the flow design of your sump.

BTW, you do really want your return pump as far away from bubble sources (drain water from the tank, primarily) as possible. It is nice that at least the drain water is not coming into the return chamber.

If it turns out to be your baffles creating/allowing the bubbles to get to your return pump (which is what they are designed in to prevent) then you're just forcing too much flow through your sump....remember around 3-4 times tank turnover is generally adequate for most filter systems. 200 gph should be adequate in your case - a bit more wouldn't hurt. 700 gph is overkill by a fairly wide margin. Not going to hurt anything by having 700 gph, but the 250 gph of your skimmer pump (or flow-through rate of your skimmer if you know it) is realistically what you're wanting to match up to with the return pump flow. Personally, one Rio at 300+ gph should be more than adequate. I'd solve the problem by saving the 2nd Rio in a closet as a backup.

-Matt

 

[Kworker]

Yeah thanks guys, i do have two smaller pumps I'll prob switch too, I'll play around to see what gives best combo.

The reason I designed sump like that is the left side was going to be a refugium but I ditched the idea for the research I've done on them points that they have a reverse effect in many cases, not really useful.

I was going to try and get all my flow just from my pumps in the sump and use no powerheads but seems like I can't. Oh well not end of the world. Like I said I'll play around with my smaller pumps and see what I can come up with. Either that or connect via a Y to both returns from just one pump.

The powerheads just give me an excuse to setup wavemaker too lol, thanks again folks. I'll let you know how things go.

 

[Kworker]

The pumps I've been running are rio 1700's.

The two smaller I have are 1100's at four feet rated for 180gph.
Will ky skimmer be fine in the separate area or should I devote all flow to skimmer portion since on paper my pumps are rated at 360gph together but will go down a bunch after the elbows, the pump for the reef octopus nwb 110 is rated for 350gph

 

[skinz78]

If I were you, and it was possible to do I would redo the sump, have the drain go into the left portion "it looks bigger to me?". In the left portion if you can fit both your drain and your skimmer in there do it. have the middle portion for other future filtration such as carbon, or phosphate removal media. Then place the bigger pumps on the right side all by themselves.

Just my .02 and IMHO would be the best solution with what you have to work with.

 

[gmoney243]

My return pump is in middle of my sump with no micro bubbles or bubble traps. The faster your flow through your sump is the less effecient your skimmer will be and your microbubble problem is from that also. Try keep your flow at like 5x volume. Your gona have to use powerheads.

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[Kworker]

If I were you, and it was possible to do I would redo the sump, have the drain go into the left portion "it looks bigger to me?". In the left portion if you can fit both your drain and your skimmer in there do it. have the middle portion for other future filtration such as carbon, or phosphate removal media. Then place the bigger pumps on the right side all by themselves.

Just my .02 and IMHO would be the best solution with what you have to work with.

Not that it makes a difference but in the picture i took the picture of the sump backwards, the bigger portion is on the right currently with the tank running.

Anyway, how do you think i should do to redo it easily. Do you think i could remove top baffle and some way create teeth in the other piece? or what about removing the one coming out from the bottom and leaving the gap along the bottom for water to pass through.
I think if i remove the bottom baffle only allowing water to go through the bottom of the other i could set up a way that filtration pads could work effectively and water can only go out after it passes through them.

Thanks for suggestion.

 

[Kworker]

The other issue im finding with using both the bigger pumps and allowing all that water to go to all the same place is the skimmer pump is rated for 350gph, should i not bring down the water passing through to the skimmers pump's capacity?

 

[skinz78]

I would leave the baffles right where you have them.

If you have the skimmer in the same compartment as the drain, and the skimmer effluent is draining right back into that same compartment then you shouldn't have any issues with it. Sure you'll re skim some of the water but that won't hurt a thing. I just aim my skimmer effluent right at my baffles.

I tend to like a lot of flow through my sump, I find that you'll get a corner in the sump that collects detritus so it can easily be siphoned out. I think the more flow the more detritus and stuff to be removed but you have to stay on top of it. That is just my liking and to each their own.

 

[Kworker]

i dont see how the baffles in the place now can allow the pumps to be all the way to the right? its hard for me to just experiment with it too since i pvc glued all of it the way it is currently. I'm kinda of assuming you mean the two middle portions would be exact same water height than instead of my middle being a couple inches lower, the other side would lower the other inches automatically since the pump is pulling out of it.

also i dont think the skimmer would fit in the middle portion as it barely fits in the biggest of the sections, so i think i would have to remove baffles.

 

[skinz78]

If I were you, and it was possible to do I would redo the sump, have the drain go into the left portion "it looks bigger to me?". In the left portion if you can fit both your drain and your skimmer in there do it. have the middle portion for other future filtration such as carbon, or phosphate removal media. Then place the bigger pumps on the right side all by themselves.

Just my .02 and IMHO would be the best solution with what you have to work with.

I never said place the skimmer in the middle? Drain and skimmer in one compartment, middle comp open, and return pumps in the last compartment.

 

[Kworker]

Even then, I know what u exactly mean now, but wouldn't I have too much water than my skimmer?

 

[Kworker]

Have it down to almost no bubbles.

But still have playing to do, would like to make all of the drain go to one portion and locate pumps over to other.

Thanks to all.

 

[Kworker]

i picked up some 3/4 black vinyl tubing from HD. I had plans on moving the pumps over.

But when i went to my LFS i picked up two eshopps sponges to put inbetween baffles.
I put back in the two rio 1700 pumps (352 each) and the microbubble problem is solved, there is just those stray few floating around the DT,
Do you guys feel its fine that i have two seperate places where my drain is going? Having controlled amount go into the portion with the skimmer.

 

[mcarroll]

Do you guys feel its fine that i have two seperate places where my drain is going? Having controlled amount go into the portion with the skimmer.

I wouldn't say you're hurting anything - so nothing "wrong" with the dual drain locations. There are a few considerations you might be "going against" at most...

1. Ideally you'd like 100% of the drain water to hit the skimmer first, and for 100% of it to be filtered by the skimmer before returning to the tank for the most bang/buck. Half or more of your return flow isn't being skimmed at all.
2. The return pump is a fairly expensive way to flow a tank, in terms of flow/watts, due to all the head loss. At around 30 watts, you're getting less than 250gph of flow in the tank...and none of the flexibility of a powerhead, and not really any benefit to the filtration system either. That flow/watts number is even worse than a plain old Maxi Jet (which is bad). Compare a Koralia or Tunze powerhead which can get you over 1000gph of flow for around 7 watts, and much better flexibility in deployment. The Tunze especially!

Again, all just considerations....the fact that you already have the 1700's and all the plumbing in place (no more $$ or work!) are additional considerations!

I honestly might be tempted to try one of them out for flow in the tank directly (420 gph/30 watts) instead of running flow from the sump with both at once.

Good luck!

-Matt

 

[Kworker]

i forgot to post but i changed it, running the two 1100's put them all the way to left and diverted all flow to right where skimmer is, middle just has my sponge filter for when i need my QT