Two tanks with one sump... suggestions?

[bizzal]

Hi all and thanks for reading. Been following all the good info on here for a little while n finally decided to stop being a guest and register. Hopefully I could help you guys as well.I will be starting two new tanks in the near future, a 15g tall cube, and a 55g standard. Both will be mixed reef and focus mainly on inverts and less on fish. I will get more into the details of husbandry and the specifics of the preferred inhabitants for each tank in a bit.

I am thinking about setting up the 15g asap. (Within 1mo). Im going to use a 10g as a sump and refugium with cheato, mag3 return pump (5' head height), and a cpr bakpak as a skimmer. I bought the Orphek pr25xp for the main lighting but feel like ill need some additional leds for more general veiwing brightness...id like this tank to be simple, green star polyps on a barebottom, clams mid way up the rock work, and maybe M. Setosa for the top...a few blood shrimp, small hermits, and maybe some cerith snails as my CUC...

*The 55g will have a custom 35g sump with refugium and Euroreef skimmer(forgot model but rated for 75g or so I believe). Lighting will be 2 120w led fixtures (off brand name unknown. I have seen these at the store where they were purchased from. Its a 60/40 blue white combo, which is shown to work to grow and keep inverts happy as the store uses them on all their tanks, show/stock/frag). I havent decided on what and how much to put in this tank yet, but im thinking of half show tank (mother colonies) and the other half a frag station...for when my mommies grow out lol... 1" sand bed (or less) for the dt.So heres the situation and where I need your suggestions:The 55g will have an acrylic sump that comes with the setup. (Im aquiring the full setup in about 5months) the custom sump is 36" x 13" x 16" tall. It has a 15" long 1st section, 12" mid section, and the rest are baffles leading to the return pump (mag 7) section. Section 1 is basically empty except for the Euroreef. Section 2 is the refugium. Thats the existing system...*

Id LIKE TO USE THIS SUMP TO RUN BOTH TANKS!

Thinking to make the 1st section an 8" deep DSB, leading to a bare bottom cheato refugium w live rock. I would also like to use the last section to house the return pump, BUT heres where I need your advice guys and gals.( guess I shouldnt have said that earlier...lol) I would like to drill drainage holes into the side of the sump (return section side, left panel of sump) leading to a satellite 10g that would be under the 15gal dt. (The two mentioned setups will be side by side, the 15g on the left). The 10g would house the skimmer and a mag 3 or 5 (or what do you suggest flow rate wise?) that would lead back to the DSB section of the main sump. I plan on modifing the feed line from the 10gal and the 55g drainage line to spray bars so they dont disturb the DSB.*Anyone see any problems yet?I also would like to ask if this eventual setup sounds good, what problem if any do you see adding this larger system to the existing 15gal? Remember I WANT (lol) to get the 15gal going asap but wont get the55g for a few months. I am worried that I will run into another new tank syndrome if I put the 55 online to the 15 as a new tank. Should I cycle the 55g first (for a few months) and then combine the systems? Or should I wait and start them both at the same time since they will be running off one main filtration setup anyway.Normally I would like to keep systems separate, but since it seemed like two very similar systems, I wanted to combine the sumps usage so I could enlarge the overall volume of the 15g dt for water stability. Oh I didnt mention but I plan to use a mag 9 as the main return pump, Teeing off to a SCWD to each of the tanks. (So each tank would have two return lines)...Well I think you should all get my long winded point...lol. I will kindly accept all constructive criticism. Let me know what you think.*Thanks again !*

 

[mayday610]

Sounds like you have quite the project on your hands but also sounds like you have it well thought out. First thing i'd like to address that poped into my mind was your return going into your DSB. I've had a little experience with this a time ago. I personally don't think a spray bar is going to cut it. I have a feeling that the amount of water you'll have going in there will only increase pressure as it goes into that chamber. I tried a few things trying to keep my sand in one place and almost all of them failed. What i ended up doing that worked the best was to use elbows in the plumbing and that went down to the surface of the sand bed and then ended up pointing back to the surface, making a 180 degree bend. This directs all the flow away from the DSB surface. If possible, i would also run some line horizontal, or build a manifold, to disturb the downward flow of the water before it hits the 180 bend,, otherwise you will have a mini guyser. If that is not possible, i suggest running the lines directly onto some filter material or something of that nature. Anything you can do to disperse the water. I personally don't like spray bars because they can clog over time and if there is not enough areas to release the amount of water flowing to it, it will start to back up in the lines and create more pressure through the holes. Unless you can overkill the spray bar setup, i personally would avoid it.
As far as linking the tanks, here is my personal opinion. I guess in many aspects it would be good to wait and set them up together so they can cylce together. Also you would be able to work out any problems with plumbing and what not before you have livestock. But personally, i would hate to wait that long and i would set up the 15. The issue when you are ready is this, you have a little body of water being taken over by a large body of water. If you just plumb them and let them rip, you are likely to shock the smaller system. What you can do to avoid this is act like the 15 is a new fish you just got from the LFS. Slowly acclimate the system to the larger system so you do not shock it! Take your time with it. I would also cycle the 55g first. You could probably manage without it, but it don't suggest it. If it was the 55 set up and you were adding the 15, id say go for it,, but adding a large to a small,, i would cycle it first. Also just a final thought, when you do your plumbing, don't be afraid to oversize your lines a bit where ever there is flow doubt, and put some valves in those lines. Being able to adjust flow rates to the different ares of the systems will help avoid headaches trying to regulate.

 

[bizzal]

Solid advice... thank you mayday! For the most part thats what I was gonna do; start the 15g and cylce the 55g for a month or two BEFORE linking the tanks. As for the dsb, am I correct to say the total flow rate (gph) is ok for the linked system, just may be too direct of flow? Instead of a spray bar how about using a bunch of linked pvc Ts? (I also felt the spray bar would clogg later on down the road but wasnt able to fig out a better solution. My thought was to saw a long slat down (3/16" - 1/4") the middle of a 13" or so long pvc pipe n then glue an end cap on it... rather than drill a buncha holes in it. My friend has a table saw so I would be pretty easy.. wouldnt even think of that with a dremel or hack saw lol...
Thsnks again for your 2cents!

 

[mayday610]

All you can do is try it. Just remember that what you pump up must come down at the same flow rate. As long as you have enough slot space to handle the amount of water coming down. To help with the pressure i really suggest you put some type of a U loop in the line before the spray bar to help take the pressure off from it due to gravity. If you run the lines down into the spray bar with a cap on it, you are in theory creating a nozzle. All the energy from the water and gravity will have to spit out your spray bar. If you can get your water to pour/flow out rather than being forced out due to a closed end, you will see a significant loss in pressure that will stir your sand. I do still have another alternative that i have done before that i liked. I have three lines coming into my sump now because i changed my design around, but before i had all three 2" overflows come into a 6" manifold with a single T coming into my sump. The T came in at a 90 degree straight down with another T going 90 degrees up, just to relieve air pressure that comes down with the water. Under the T going into my sump, i had a length of PVC a size or two, can't remember exactly, larger that was cut just to the height of the water. The water coming into the sump would drain into this pipe and over flow over the top, spreading out the flow in a 360 degree without the pressure. It will take up DSB area, but might be another consideration to something along those lines. I'm interested as to what you come up with. I'm one of those guys who like to play with my tank so i've changed things time and time again to see what i like and what i don't. I'm no expert, but i've tried many different things.

 

[fragmatic]

My sump handles my main display tank, my refugium, and my display refugium. I don't see that as any different. You just have to make sure your sump will handle all the return water that will flow back during a power failure.

 

[ReeferBob]

1st thing I notice is the 55g tank. If you haven't purchased this tank yet, don't. There is no worse size then a 55g tank. I suggest a 120g. 2nd, the only safe way to run two tanks with one sump is to have the 1st tank drain into the 2nd, the 2nd into the sump, and the sump back into the 1st. Really any other way and you will eventually have a flood. You will never get two pumps balanced. With this level of complexity I also would not suggest anything but drilled gravity fed overflows. You cannot drill 55g tanks, they are tempered. So drill tank #1, have it gravity siphon into tank #2, and tank #2 is drilled and gravity siphons into the sump.

Now all this said, you can make this work in other ways. You just need to prepare for the eventual flood(s) that you will have. Make sure insurance policies are up to date and if you have a sig-other, make sure you won't be on the couch for too long.

I strongly suggest you ditch the multi-tank plan and put all of your resources into 1 nice DT and sump. A 125g long (72") is a great footprint that you can pick up for around $400 already reef-ready bottom drilled. This length tank also is the minimum size tank recommended for Tangs. I would buy most of your stuff online to get better stuff at better prices. I love to support my local stores but will not sacrifice what I want to match what they stock. Most local stores stock crap.

Photosynthetic inverts need good lighting as much as coral does. Your clams require hi "correct" lighting which you will not get from cheap generic lights. Spending a little on lights now will make this hobby so much more enjoyable for you. Buying cheap stuff will only result in frustration and buying better stuff later once you realize the cheap stuff is junk. You will end up buying a $100 clam with a $100 light and the clam will die.

And forget about the frag tank for now, you are WAY to early in the process to even consider this. Get your feet wet with a decent 125g setup, let it run for a year or so, and see where you can go. My guess is you will get totally screwed on the price at where-ever you are looking just based on what you have written above. Anyone that would sell a reef setup that included a 55g tank would never get my business again. Sounds like a bunch of amateurs selling crap that they can easily get. Find a better store or go exclusively online.

 

[bizzal]

COOL! Thanks guys for responding...

ReeferBob: although i would love to go larger than a 55g, its FREE. not going to pass it up but i will make it work...even if i need to work harder at doing so. Wasnt planning on hosting tang(s) in the tank either... maybe a dwarf angel as the largest fish... as for the possible flood, yes that was one of my main concerns when combining tanks, especially when adding the secondary 10g to the 'finished' two tank, two sump system. I was thinking of using a swing check valve immed after the single return pump, followed by a true union ball valve for easy cleaning or replacing. the 1" swing checks are under $15 at the local store so replacing them on a yearly basis wouldnt be much financial concern. As for the 'cheap' lights, normally i would agree with you. ive seen these lights growing corals VERY nicely. (Monti Cap, Multiple Euphyllia, zoos in a 125g... no clams or acros though, but i think if i put them up high enough it may work) Ive talked the the shop owner about the lights (he designed and distributes the LED fixtures through his shop) and they use 10,000K whites and 450nm blues. (plus the lights come with the free 55g) Do you have a suggestion(s) as to which lighting you would use over this 55g for LED? id like to review the specs on those lights and compare them with the 'free' ones...
As for what goes up must come down... i will only use one return pump once the DTs are joined. i will t or y off and ball valve to each return to the respective tank.

Fragmatic: yup. i will be adding a swing check to the return pump and replacing it on a yearly basis, cleaning it every 3-4months. In addition, if i cannot plumb the returns to take in air (assuming the check valve fails) i will be rethinking the system(s).

MayDay610: i dig the T up idea minus the cap... if i understand correctly, water will flow down into the sump, go back up through a U, and then out a 'few' Ts, with lastly a T at the end to relieve any residual water pressure? I dont mind it taking up realestate in the DSB section as i wont and shouldnt be F'n with it anyway. Plus there wouldnt be anything pretty to look at on that side.

To all: when i have time i will post a sketch (not a messy one lol) of what im thinking of...

 

[ReeferBob]

Sorry I don't know much about LEDs. Just that larger LEDs are better, the 3 watt vs the 1 watt and most DIY'ers use CREE LEDs. I am old-school T5HO.

A 55g "free" tank isn't getting much. They only cost $55 new. This will be one of the smallest expenditure you make. I'd go at least 75g since it is a wider tank (front to back) which makes it much better for SW with the live rock. And again, you cannot drill a 55g tank. So you will always have a HOB overflow to the sump which is one more thing to fail. Upgrading to a larger tank and a later date will be a major undertaking.

 

[bizzal]

To all...I neglected to mention the 55g and its components listed in the 1st thread will be given to me. It is an acrylic truvu, with an internal 1" corner overflow and and opposite corner dry return. I have a hole saw kit available to me if the need/feeling arises to drill out an emergency drain. (With bulkhead of course).
The 15g is glass and I will be drilling (using BRS glass bits) for a single 1" drain and two 1/2" return ports. The drain will have an overflow box attached.

To reeferbob: I hate external overflow boxes too. Will never use them in any of my systems... (took care of a buddies tank while he was outta town and I had to restart that **** box every other day..) it never really stopped but air would slowly get in every day slowing down the drainage a bit. Lastly I wish I could have space and the finances for a 125g but I dont. So ill be setting up the 15g and 55g regardless of them being connected as one system..

Side note to all I will also have a 40 breeder setup as a qt tank.

Yes gallon wise its close to a 125g but the layout of tbe room the tanks will be in do not allow for such a deep tank. Plus (the underlying factor) I have all but the 55g And the components to run them all in my garage already...

 

[mayday610]

Reeferbob, i don't know how you can say that a 55g tank is the worst tank you can have. Maybe for you, but not for everyone. I rather enjoyed my 55g. It was a great fit for the room it was in and had a "stocked" feel with less livestock, making it a bit easier on the wallet. Less money for suitable components to boot! And you can drill a 55g tank. Not every 55g tank is your standard glass tank. As you know, acrylic is more and more common these days

 

[fragmatic]

the only safe way to run two tanks with one sump is to have the 1st tank drain into the 2nd, the 2nd into the sump, and the sump back into the 1st. Really any other way and you will eventually have a flood. You will never get two pumps balanced.

Sorry, not true.

My system is absolute proof. Having two tanks feed one sump with two pumps has nothing to do with balancing the pumps. I have three tanks running off one sump. The only concern is that there is enough extra space in the sump for when you loose power. Each tank circulates out and back independently. So while they are running none effect the depth of the sump. Whatever water is pumped from the sump to a tank is exactly how much overflows back to the sump from that tank. The ATO works just the same as if you had one large tank. In effect all the tanks you run off a sump just add up to a larger tank (scattered in different portions around the room). I could run 20 tanks off my sump if it was large enough to handle the power outage flow back state. .. IF .. I had room for that many pumps in my sump. I run my main display off one pump and run two refugium tanks off a shared pump. All return their overflow back to the sump just like the main display.

Fact is many reefers run a display tank, a frag tank, and a refugium tank, ... all off one sump.


Also, sorry, there is no rule that says 55 gallon tanks are all tempered. That will depend on the manufacturer.

I see no reason you can not add and plumb in a frag tank day one. It doesn't mean it has to have frags in it day one. My frag tank is now what I call a "display refugium" and currently has clams in it away from my shrimp and crabs. The more tanks you plumb now and run the more total water volume and the more diversity your can have in your total tank system. It gives you options as to which life forms you can have. Some life forms can not be placed in a tank with others. Having multi tanks gives you places to put more combinations. This adds to the eco diversity of your total reef water system, and it a GOOD thing.

 

[ReeferBob]

Ha! Sorry the 55g comment is JMHO. And I can see where you could run multiple tanks off one sump. I'd still worry about floods. But more I'd worry that whatever affects one tank affects them all.

 

[fragmatic]

Ha! Sorry the 55g comment is JMHO. And I can see where you could run multiple tanks off one sump. I'd still worry about floods. But more I'd worry that whatever affects one tank affects them all.

No more worries than if it was all one tank as in a 120 gallon in wall w/ 40 gallon sump. Wouldn't you think?

 

[bizzal]

thanks guys for all the suggestions and comments. i do have a few years of knowledge (10ish) plumbing tanks and keeping fish. but thats the thing. most of all those years it was fish, salties or fresh. not much HANDS ON experience in reef or semi-reefing. I did however keep a successful 8gal hex with a 10gal refugium (about 6gal water...). Only kept it for a little over a year... my sis really liked it so i broke it down and gave it to her... just beginner inverts (mushies, small torch, GSP, and hmmm cant remember the last sessile i had in there.)

anyways, i am set on plumbing the tanks together eventually. i posted as to see what suggestions or comments (point of sale or neg) would arise. seems like the number one concern (as it is mine as well) is the reservoir size to allow for flood prevention in case of a power outage. (backup generator unfortunately NOT an option). I think plumbing a SINGLE return pump split to feed both tanks would be the best option. Using a swing check valve followed by a true union ball valve for easier maintenance is a must for me. guess ill have to be pretty diligent about cleaning the CV frequently and swapping out yearly or so. Probably going to drill small air holes in the in tank returns as a backup as well.

The second issue with the shared tank would be the spread of disease... Well, i dunno...Im not lazy or (that) stupid (lol) so i will be using preventative measures for all inhabitants before they enter either system. I will have a 40bdr setup in the same room for quarantine and i will be dipping corals prior to introduction. Any preference on coral dips? Can i use the same dip for sps AND lps? do i need to dip the other corals and inverts such as softies and clams? shrimp and crabs? (may be best for me to start in another thread...or better yet read a bit more first.... the thought popped into my head and then my fingers...)

 

[bizzal]

after thinking of what a mess id have to clean up if the secondary sump floods, ive decided to scrap that idea. (wanted to add the 10g for the skimmer space so i wouldnt have to mod the larger sump). i will still be combining the two DTs (15g and 55g) but will just mod the 1st chamber to fit the skimmer better and use the second chamber (existing) as a combined dsb and cheato fuge. thank again for all your help and suggestions guys! i will keep yall posted when the systems are running....

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

All you can do is try it. Just remember that what you pump up must come down at the same flow rate. As long as you have enough slot space to handle the amount of water coming down. To help with the pressure i really suggest you put some type of a U loop in the line before the spray bar to help take the pressure off from it due to gravity. If you run the lines down into the spray bar with a cap on it, you are in theory creating a nozzle. All the energy from the water and gravity will have to spit out your spray bar. If you can get your water to pour/flow out rather than being forced out due to a closed end, you will see a significant loss in pressure that will stir your sand. I do still have another alternative that i have done before that i liked. I have three lines coming into my sump now because i changed my design around, but before i had all three 2" overflows come into a 6" manifold with a single T coming into my sump. The T came in at a 90 degree straight down with another T going 90 degrees up, just to relieve air pressure that comes down with the water. Under the T going into my sump, i had a length of PVC a size or two, can't remember exactly, larger that was cut just to the height of the water. The water coming into the sump would drain into this pipe and over flow over the top, spreading out the flow in a 360 degree without the pressure. It will take up DSB area, but might be another consideration to something along those lines. I'm interested as to what you come up with. I'm one of those guys who like to play with my tank so i've changed things time and time again to see what i like and what i don't. I'm no expert, but i've tried many different things.

Please id love to see pictures, I can imagine it and would love e some other ideas on the "2 tanks one sump" projects out there, either way it sounds good, im in debate of combining 2 tanks...