ULN

[Scdell]

So, nutrients are down tho ULN numbers. Phosphate reads 2 on ultra low test. Nitrates are about 1. I've been dosing nitrates. Decided to pull the filter socks. Thoughts? Never thought I'd get to this.

 

[29bonsaireef]

I've not once had an issue with ULN, but I never let my alk go above 8. Some people like the lighter colors, others don't.

If you're looking for ways to live with ULN, keep alk on the low side. If you're looking for a way to get back up from ULN it would be helpful to know what means of export you currently use? Stopping some of those nutrient exports might benefit your situation.

 

[Scdell]

Yeah I don't let my all get above 8 either. I know the dangers there. Corals look great, good growth. I just don't want to mess up.

 

[Scdell]

Basically filter socks and a protien skimmer. That's all I use for export.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I've not once had an issue with ULN, but I never let my alk go above 8. Some people like the lighter colors, others don't.

If you're looking for ways to live with ULN, keep alk on the low side. If you're looking for a way to get back up from ULN it would be helpful to know what means of export you currently use? Stopping some of those nutrient exports might benefit your situation.

+1. I find it’s chasing ULN’s by means of carbon dosing, gfo etc that causes more problems than having ULN’s. I’ve had 0 ppb P/0-0.25 no3 and now I had, today, 71 ppb P/10-15 no3 and all my acros have looked happy no matter what the measurements are. I don’t use any export other than growing chaeto in my sump.

 

[Scdell]

Forgot, I do have chaeto in my sump. I don't count it as it's not doing very well. It survives. Doesn't grow much.

 

[29bonsaireef]

Yeah I don't let my all get above 8 either. I know the dangers there. Corals look great, good growth. I just don't want to mess up.

If everything is looking good, and growing good I would just let it ride and keep doing what you're doing. With ULN the corals might be more susceptible, if something were to go wrong. Like a spike in Alk, increase in lighting, cyano outbreak, that sort of stuff.. but it really depends. With the natural export methods like you're using, I find it hard to mess up. Just my experience.

 

[Scdell]

Yeah, thanks everyone. Just uncharted territory for me here. But I can handle it. Actually think I'll like ULN.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Yeah, thanks everyone. Just uncharted territory for me here. But I can handle it. Actually think I'll like ULN.

I agree @29bonsaireef. The eye test is the most important. I’ve noticed 2 major differences between ULN and higher like I have now. The higher has produced much faster growth but I have to clean the glass multiple times a day now. I only had to clean it a couple times a week with ULN.

 

[jda]

That is not ultra low, that is just low. Actually, if your N is truly near 1, then that is about 10x higher than some keep it and also natural seawater.

1-2 ppb and .1 N is natural seawater and what I consider just low. If you want to go lower than this, then that is ultra low. You usually need media and/or chemicals to get this low. I find the best colors and growth are at these levels, but I also feed them tons of quality food though my MH lighting.

I would still keep the alk around 7.0, or NSW levels, for either of these.

 

[Scdell]

That is not ultra low, that is just low. Actually, if your N is truly near 1, then that is about 10x higher than some keep it and also natural seawater.

1-2 ppb and .1 N is natural seawater and what I consider just low. If you want to go lower than this, then that is ultra low. You usually need media and/or chemicals to get this low. I find the best colors and growth are at these levels, but I also feed them tons of quality food though my MH lighting.

I would still keep the alk around 7.0, or NSW levels, for either of these.

I don't know if anyone has ever told you this? Your opinionated. And you go against the grain of so many things on here. You may have a nice tank and you may be right. But you seem to come out of left field with everything. Sorry, but that rubs me wrong. Just saying.

 

[jda]

Experience, not opinions. In 25+ years, I have seen the fads come and go. This fad of higher building blocks will come and go too, just like so many others. I was around when people strove for NSW level parameters at levels like I posted above - we had worse tools and strove for "clear" on Salifert test kits (P has gotten better with Hannah Ultra Low, but N is about the same). Then, about year 2000-2005, people wanted to go lower and this is where ULNS was born... ULNS = lower than seawater. It did not really last and only really still works if you go 100% into a system like ZeoVit and commit fully. I did not recommend it then, and still do not recommend it now. ZEO was as huge as the people who are dosing N and P now - there are still die-hards, but not like there was. NSW level is still awesome and the way to go, but it is not ULNS, just NLS. If somebody has told you differently, or if you watched a video that said otherwise, then they were not around and are misinformed... they need more experience and less opinions.

So that you can decide if experience or opinions matter, here is some of my work at NSW level parameters. Notice colonies, not frags or teen moms (what most people call colonies with just a few branches). These are iPhone X photos unedited at all. If these rub you the wrong way, then have an admin delete my post and continue along your way and I will stay out...

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Experience, not opinions. In 25+ years, I have seen the fads come and go. This fad of higher building blocks will come and go too, just like so many others. I was around when people strove for NSW level parameters at levels like I posted above - we had worse tools and strove for "clear" on Salifert test kits (P has gotten better with Hannah Ultra Low, but N is about the same). Then, about year 2000-2005, people wanted to go lower and this is where ULNS was born... ULNS = lower than seawater. It did not really last and only really still works if you go 100% into a system like ZeoVit and commit fully. I did not recommend it then, and still do not recommend it now. ZEO was as huge as the people who are dosing N and P now - there are still die-hards, but not like there was. NSW level is still awesome and the way to go, but it is not ULNS, just NLS. If somebody has told you differently, or if you watched a video that said otherwise, then they were not around and are misinformed... they need more experience and less opinions.

So that you can decide if experience or opinions matter, here is some of my work at NSW level parameters. Notice colonies, not frags or teen moms (what most people call colonies with just a few branches). These are iPhone X photos unedited at all. If these rub you the wrong way, then have an admin delete my post and continue along your way and I will stay out...

@jda I have found your post extremely insightful and helpful for the most part. I don’t agree 100% all the time but you spend as much time trying to help as any of us. Thank you sir.

 

[RCS82]

Jda I always enjoy your insight and what you contribute to this community.
And "teen moms" lol. That's classic.

 

[SeaDweller]

I’m running super low numbers too (NO3 0.25-0.5 ppm maybe? on Salifert and PO4 0.03-0.1 on salifert) and it makes me nervous. I try to keep my alk no higher than 8.0 because of this, but I run a lot of export because of the 35 fish I have (gfo, chaeto, sulfur denitrator), and all is doing well for me. I found skimming dry and not using socks tends to help with keeping some nutrients in the water, plus with no socks, i see PE almost all day (probably doesn’t mean much).

I think you can do it, maybe just start feeding some more to compensate a bit? That’s what I do.

 

[Scdell]

Experience, not opinions. In 25+ years, I have seen the fads come and go. This fad of higher building blocks will come and go too, just like so many others. I was around when people strove for NSW level parameters at levels like I posted above - we had worse tools and strove for "clear" on Salifert test kits (P has gotten better with Hannah Ultra Low, but N is about the same). Then, about year 2000-2005, people wanted to go lower and this is where ULNS was born... ULNS = lower than seawater. It did not really last and only really still works if you go 100% into a system like ZeoVit and commit fully. I did not recommend it then, and still do not recommend it now. ZEO was as huge as the people who are dosing N and P now - there are still die-hards, but not like there was. NSW level is still awesome and the way to go, but it is not ULNS, just NLS. If somebody has told you differently, or if you watched a video that said otherwise, then they were not around and are misinformed... they need more experience and less opinions.

So that you can decide if experience or opinions matter, here is some of my work at NSW level parameters. Notice colonies, not frags or teen moms (what most people call colonies with just a few branches). These are iPhone X photos unedited at all. If these rub you the wrong way, then have an admin delete my post and continue along your way and I will stay out...

Yes your corals are nice. You are most definitely doing something right. Each tank is different and there are plenty of people that have the same thing with higher N and P numbers. I have grown corals to large colonies with higher numbers. Albeit easier ones.
I was in this hobby when people started keeping SPS. It was hard back then. Wet dry filters, underground filters, etc, etc. It was rough back then. Unfortunately I couldn't stay in it, couldn't afford it anymore. But the itch was always there. So I started my current tank 2 years ago. 150 gallon tall. Needless to say I've learned a ton from sites like this. I'm quite amazed at times at what I've accomplished.
I've learned that there are many ways to accomplish the same result. I agree with you that NSW is the way I would like to run my tank.
I apologize for my rudeness. I don't always get my point across in the most tactful way. I just find you feel your way is the only right way. Which I understand. If it works don't change it.

 

[Scdell]

I’m running super low numbers too (NO3 0.25-0.5 ppm maybe? on Salifert and PO4 0.03-0.1 on salifert) and it makes me nervous. I try to keep my alk no higher than 8.0 because of this, but I run a lot of export because of the 35 fish I have (gfo, chaeto, sulfur denitrator), and all is doing well for me. I found skimming dry and not using socks tends to help with keeping some nutrients in the water, plus with no socks, i see PE almost all day (probably doesn’t mean much).

I think you can do it, maybe just start feeding some more to compensate a bit? That’s what I do.

Yes it's making me nervous. I'm quite curious to see how running no filter socks works.
I don't have but about 7 fish. But I do have a pair of blue damsels that spawn on a continuous basis. They are aggressive because of that and I thought about getting rid of them. But I think they are adding to the health of my tank by spawning. So. I keep them. I get PE all day. I do notice the water is not quite as clear.

 

[Big E]

I’m running super low numbers too (NO3 0.25-0.5 ppm maybe? on Salifert and PO4 0.03-0.1 on salifert) and it makes me nervous. I try to keep my alk no higher than 8.0 because of this, but I run a lot of export because of the 35 fish I have (gfo, chaeto, sulfur denitrator), and all is doing well for me. I found skimming dry and not using socks tends to help with keeping some nutrients in the water, plus with no socks, i see PE almost all day (probably doesn’t mean much).

I think you can do it, maybe just start feeding some more to compensate a bit? That’s what I do.

My response is to the thread but quoted your post to highlight what's most important above....35 fish. Someone with a 30g cube and a handful of fish wouldn't be able to keep corals from going pale with higher numbers.

The whole goal is to cycle in plenty of nutrients so that the corals can get their share. They benefit most when it's comes processed through the fish load in the form of ammonium, urea, and poop.

Most people get in trouble early on when they chase short term algae or numbers in their new setups and then once the tank matures, their nutrient export system is too effective............then they start adding nitrate-phoshate, coral foods, ammino acids,ect and down the rabbit hole they go Things would be much easier if people started with a good skimmer a clean up crew and nothing else.

 

[jda]

I don't care if anybody does it "my way" nor do I care if somebody listens to me... only trying to help. I am not selling anything, only offering what I have found works best. I have been reefing since 1992 and got into acropora in about 1994. 25 years with sticks is a long time. After trying all kinds of different stuff over the years, I have settled onto what not only works best for me, but what works best when people need help. These methods work for the locals and people on the national boards who are struggling. It is not even hard - lots of real live rock (this is getting harder unfortunately), lots of light from 350-850nm (you need a mercury-based source for this), flow, heavy import and heavy export of food with very low residual numbers near NSW, routine and reasonable water changes and a very stable way to add calcium, carbonate, magnesium, strontium, mlyob and all other traces (and Iron if you run chaeto). Simple, effective and also nearly the exact same thing that some of the first reefing books wrote about in the 1980s. This is also easy to duplicate, easy to recommend and easy to help people with.

I try and stay in these ranges. As it turns out, this dude is pretty smart... and what he recommends works well.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/o...-reef-aquarium-by-randy-holmes-farley.173563/

I have changed in a few areas... I love using sand, but I have seen enough people have high-level tanks without it to not have it on my list anymore. I also tried for a few years at limiting water changes and using a supplement for trace element additions, but have gone away from this. I have seen a few tanks that don't change much water (there is no such thing as a true no water change tank) that do OK, but I don't want to work that hard or spend that much money - salt is cheap and changing water is easy. I have a CaRx that gets all of the "hard" traces and I use water changes to supply the rest since it is easy and they come in balance. Changing water has seen better results and the limited water change experiment was a failure for me.

Export is interesting and there are many good ways. I use at least two skimmers - two OK skimmers like even older ASMs will crush a single top-of-the-line skimmer like a Bubble king, at a fraction of the cost. Also, fuges can work great too if you keep iron levels up. Small doses of media can be effective, but you really have to be careful not to go into the ULN category. Water changes are good. In the end, any of these will work and you have to find some balance and what works for you. I use a fuge on one tank, but the other one does not need it.

If you have your building blocks at NSW levels, just keep your alk around 7 and you are all set. If you are nervous about being this low, then get a reliable method of addition (CaRx are as reliable as it gets, but many do well with kalk and 2/3 part). There is no reason to get nervous. I had my alk go down to 4.0 twice last year (stupid me) and the corals were all OK - I raised it right back up with baking soda and nothing seemed to notice. I am not recommending this, only saying that 5 or 6 is not al that bad if your tank is healthy, so don't sweat staying at 7.0.

In this area, these corals get nearly no planktonic food, according to the biologist that was studying the site (most planktonic food in more near the shore and in lagoons), are out of the water for much of the day, but still thrive because they are fed well (sun) and the building blocks are kept low to allow maximum calcification and tissue repair. Not my photo, but I like to post it a lot to show how resilient these corals are when they are well-fed and kept in conditions similar to natural seawater:

 

[SeaDweller]

Yes it's making me nervous. I'm quite curious to see how running no filter socks works.
I don't have but about 7 fish. But I do have a pair of blue damsels that spawn on a continuous basis. They are aggressive because of that and I thought about getting rid of them. But I think they are adding to the health of my tank by spawning. So. I keep them. I get PE all day. I do notice the water is not quite as clear.

Yep, my water is cloudy at times for sure...