Unable to keep SPS

kalendo · Feb 24, 2015

So I am unable to keep SPS in my tank. This is my story:

Started off back in Feb 2014 on a 40B with a 20H sump. For the life of me I do not remember how long my tank took to cycle. As soon as I thought my tank was ready I added coral, various SPS and Zoas and for a few months I believed they were doing ok. I started to add SPS. All my SPS STN/RTN, I tested high on nitrates and was fighting it. I've done vodka dosing and many many waterchanges and it never got below 50 mg/l per SERA nitrate test. I had to go on an emeregency job overseas and my tank was neglected a bit, my wife took care of if for me. The LPS survived for the three months I wasn't there. When I came back I added biopellets into my sump and it lowered my nitrates. In december I upgraded my tank in January to a 75G and attempted SPS once more. They did well for a bit and started to STN once more. I really want to keep SPS in my tank but this is very discouraging.

Equipment

Lumini Gemius 120r (getting two more to cover my tank (left side)
36" Beamworks 3w led (right side, will replace with another Gemis 120r)
SCA-302 Skimmer
Two 300 Watt Heater
DIY biopellet reactor (400ml of NPX pellets)
2 Jebao wp-10 (W1/S3)
Jebao RW-8 (50%/W1)
300ml Phosband

Parameters:
Ammonia 0
Phospate 0.25
Nitrate 0

kalendo · Feb 24, 2015

Here are some pics:

Right side of the tank, you can see the detritus build up. You can also see what it looks like green hair algae, the way i determine that it is GHA is that my tang is eating it vs if it was bryosis it wouldnt be attempting to eat it.

LPS side of the tank.

Middle view of the tank.

SPS side of the tank

Acro SPS are all white. The Zoas arent opened up. Birdsnest is STN.

deerhunter06 · Feb 24, 2015

alk, calcium, magnesium? using ro/di water? whats your SG?

kalendo · Feb 24, 2015

ALK: 8
CA: 380
I thought I had my MG but nothing in my notes. I haven't tested since the 12 but since than I done two 10% water changes every Friday using Aquavitro Salinty. Normally my salinity is at 1.025 but it has been on the low side, gradually getting it to back, its at 1.023 atm. I use RODI as well.

deerhunter06 · Feb 24, 2015

U run gfo?

kalendo · Feb 24, 2015

I run phosbond, about 90mL of it.

kalendo · Feb 24, 2015

I got this response from another forum

"Im not trying to convert you onto peroxide only in this thread lol so dont take this as a sway attempt im simply referencing what work we do at nr.com with a years long thread of treatments. this is what we do with it as a single source of algae control, it doesnt affect sps. its particularly suited to your tank because those rocks are low stacked, not locked together, and can be lifted out to spot kill anything regardless of your params. Im not saying dump ferts into the tank, Im saying we can breathe easy now with no sand nutrient issues upcoming.

grande peroxide thread
http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/26870...ove-it/page-58

from sixty pages of headache it condenses to this for your tank based on pics:

well done bravo on removing the biggest diaper in the world for a tank, now you can arrange lift out and reposition your rocks (kill the algae direct not by the water column which burns everything) without fear of recycling or mini cycling. You can access algae whether its bry or GHA. not sure which is here, i could easily kill both tho in 24 hours.

The long term prognosis for algae control isn't really a factor now, thats what heavy water stripping is for lets wait a long time for that. you just bought all kinds of freedom eliminating a detritus trap and making a tank where all rocks can be lifted out, rotated, and basted literally in between the corals as a cheat, until you find your tune.

thats what makes most people need these 7 algae approaches, the sandbed leaking junk, now we need to give time for your rock to expel that which it built up in the sb presence

it took on some nutrient while it was in abundance, so if it leaks some nutrient and allows algae to grow for a year, dont fret. I dont think it will last forever but really you just kill it for a while, it wont be weekly. Try an emersed treatment where you lift out a rock, apply peroxide from a new bottle on it, wait two mins out in the air, then set it back in. I bet that algae patch doesnt come back for two mos even if you took all forms of nitrate control and po4 control offline.

so you take offline most of the phosphate and nitrate gear from attack mode, your tank isn't bad enough to warrant more than spot dosing of p and light GFO use, in my opinion. I dont see nitrates anymore an issue sans bed, so the pellets aren't a huge help and are linked with sps stress until balanced.

we are having trouble balancing in my opinion.

clearly the light is a porche

i am still on pc lighting lol from 1999 which may be retro, but anything I put under it grows for sure with no pop but it for sure grows all sps and lps. your lighting will have a sweet spot for corals that you'll have to experiment to find and it seems you can't miss. if I ever get led Id like yours!

my current vote is conditions aren't lethal for sps, they are starving so the loss is slow. spot feed em, find a less total blue sweet spot, and lessen up that nitrate attack and po4 attack this tank will do fine without a bed as nutrients leave the rock and become exported through various means.

One could just as easily use carbon dosing as a single source, or kent magnesium boosting which has worked well, the reason i use peroxide is the reason a bass player chooses his instrument over a tuba, mere preference. google search around for which foods had measurable effects on corals

i remember an advancedaquarist online study, porites, showing statis. significant growth on roti pods, that kind of science will help us.

there are specific micron size feeds that sps eat and its not snake oil, roti pods is one but that was from like 3 yrs ago that may be discontinued.

sps arent notably stressed in tank where they aren't carefully target fed, once we find the tune we can lighten up...typically being in a tank of good params and light, with fish and their inclusive nutrient provisions, is enough to totally feed the sps and in many tanks all the corals, you do have a nice balance of well fed fish.

im just trying to amp the feed angle, there's no reason sps shouldnt thrive here."

I know he means well but at the end of the day I don't want to think too hard, can someone translate what he is trying to say? >< Not trying to be mean. Just not sure what is being said.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Feb 24, 2015

How often do you replace the Phosban? Might need to be more often.

kalendo · Feb 24, 2015

Tbh, I just started using the Phosban within the last 11 days, the package recommends to use it for four test it and if its 0 your ok with it until it becomes all used up. When I tested the first day still had phospate in my tank so replaced it once. Planning to test it tomorrow since it will be day 12. I am thinking about switching to GFO if this doesn't show any results. What do you think?

deerhunter06 · Feb 24, 2015

I agree with the guy who wrote the book u are starving them slowly.

deerhunter06 · Feb 24, 2015

I am not a fan of phosphate reducing things with sps in a tank I believe they need to be used in moderation. I've read a lot of bad threads with ppl using them and losing sps.

kalendo · Feb 24, 2015

Deer I should be supplementing my corals with something like coral frenzy or something else? I was under the impression that when I feed my fish my corals would eat the poo from them. Is this understanding wrong?

deerhunter06 · Feb 24, 2015

no you are right

kalendo · Feb 24, 2015

So my fish poo isn't enough?

deerhunter06 · Feb 24, 2015

I'm just not an expert man I don't want to tell u what to do from here all I know is the basics alk Calc MG SG all make a big difference. From my understanding solely based on what I have been reading on these forums for the past few years SPS need a small amount phosphates to thrive if your algae and phosban is taking up all the phosphates then your sps is going to experience STN. I'm sure someone will disagree. That's how I run my tank I have algae and I run gfo like once a month for a couple days and I take it out. And I have sps doing really well. I'm scared to run gfo any longer based on things I've read on here and i swear when I do run it my sps PE goes out the window they hate it.

hart24601 · Feb 24, 2015

deerhunter06 said:
I'm just not an expert man I don't want to tell u what to do from here all I know is the basics alk Calc MG SG all make a big difference. From my understanding solely based on what I have been reading on these forums for the past few years SPS need a small amount phosphates to thrive if your algae and phosban is taking up all the phosphates then your sps is going to experience STN. I'm sure someone will disagree. That's how I run my tank I have algae and I run gfo like once a month for a couple days and I take it out. And I have sps doing really well. I'm scared to run gfo any longer based on things I've read on here and i swear when I do run it my sps PE goes out the window they hate it.

Just as a counter point I pretty much use GFO all the time. There is always phosphate floating around the tank even when it reads 0 and the corals have no trouble using that since they need such a small amount in our systems IMO. Of course there are many ways to have success as deerhunter shows, but I really doubt the corals have all died from lack of phosphate. The only time I see corals react poorly is if someone has a super high phosphate, like 1ppm, and they strip it down to 0 really fast.

I am a big fan of feeding my corals. In general they can get enough nutrition from fish waste, but there are enough studies out there that show they grow much faster, even SPS, when fed appropriately sized foods. Just make sure you keep a handle on water conditions, but I shoot for 1ppm nitrate, no less. I would probably stop carbon dosing until the system stabilizes - if nitrates shoot up when you stop then you should address the cause of that.

You record the parameters day to day? Might be nice to do a test every night and make sure things like alk are good and stable. I have used peroxide in the past for algae, but you have to be careful with it.

kalendo · Feb 25, 2015

@Hart beautiful tank!

hart24601 · Feb 25, 2015

Thanks! I appreciate it. It keeps moving in the right direction despite a stumble every so often!

I hope we can help you out, if even a little bit.

saltyfish · Feb 25, 2015

What did your Nitrates read after your cycle was complete and what were they at when you added the SPS? The biggest cause for hard coral recession is high nitrates. Fluctuating alkalinity is another culprit. If your Nitrates are high, I would recommend upping your water changes to 25 %. Doing 10% weekly changes will take quite some time to resolve any issues. Get your Nitrates under 10ppm and keep your Alkalinity stable and SPS become very easy to keep. Please do not add coral food as it will only add to your problems. SPS do not need food to thrive if they have good light and water quality.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Feb 25, 2015

kalendo said:
Tbh, I just started using the Phosban within the last 11 days, the package recommends to use it for four test it and if its 0 your ok with it until it becomes all used up. When I tested the first day still had phospate in my tank so replaced it once. Planning to test it tomorrow since it will be day 12. I am thinking about switching to GFO if this doesn't show any results. What do you think?

Phosban is a brand of GFO. Switching is fine, but won't matter. At 0.25 ppm phosphate, the GFO is likely depleted in just a couple of days or less, assuming reasonable flow through it. If you measure the phosphate in the reactor effluent, you can know for sure.