Unique sponge ID please

[SimonMo]

I can't figure out what species this sponge is. Help me to recognize the ID.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Sponge ID can be incredibly difficult (see the quote below), but maybe a Chicken Liver Sponge (Chondrosia sp. or Chondrilla sp.)? If not, pics of the sponge from different angles under white light may (or may not) be helpful.

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

The quote referenced above:

Pineapple sponges are from the genus Sycon - The more common pineapple sponges in our tanks can pretty easily be ID’ed by sight (short, round, spiky/fuzzy, has a little spiky crown/funnel looking thing around the opening). Some other pineapple sponge species are much harder to differentiate, and - like many (likely most) sponge species alive - may require microscopic examination and/or DNA testing to actually ID accurately. These sponges in the pics are fuzzy, but they lack the typical “pineapple crown” around the opening, so, they might be pineapple sponges or they might not.

Personally, I wouldn’t feel comfortable giving an ID beyond just saying they’re sponges, as these ones just don’t have enough obviously unique characteristics that I can see to ID from.

Anyway, here’s a good Sponge ID resource for anyone who’s interested- as mentioned, though, sometimes DNA is the best indicator for telling sponges apart:

https://www.fao.org/3/i7773e/i7773e.pdf

And, here’s a decent example of why sponge ID by non-microscopic sight is not always reliable:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-G-Live-specimens-of-Lissodendoryx-species-illustrating-variations-in-shape-and_fig6_248716402

 

[SimonMo]

Sponge ID can be incredibly difficult (see the quote below), but maybe a Chicken Liver Sponge (Chondrosia sp. or Chondrilla sp.)? If not, pics of the sponge from different angles under white light may (or may not) be helpful.

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

The quote referenced above:

Thank you for the answer I think it isn't Chicken liver sponge because this sponge is totally yellow, mayby a little orange. I did some new photos but it has attached to the rock and now i don't want to destroy it so photos aren't that good as I'd like to be. But I took a sample of sponge and did some photos under microscope. Maybe this will help discover something about this sponge.

PS I' m not a native speaker so I apologise for my language mistakes

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I think it isn't Chicken liver sponge because this sponge is totally yellow, mayby a little orange.

Chicken Liver Sponge color varies depending on how much light it's exposed to, as it has photosymbionts like corals do. From what I've heard, the more light, the more yellow/orange and less white/green the color.

 

[SimonMo]

Okay then it is possible that is chicken liver sponge. I am going to start dosing phytoplancton to my tank so it should grow faster and I will see in what shape it will grow..

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

But I took a sample of sponge and did some photos under microscope. Maybe this will help discover something about this sponge.

Sorry, I should have responded to this first: what magnification is your microscope at for those close up pics that show the clear tubes in them? (I ask because if those are the spicules, then the sponge is definitely not a chicken liver sponge.)

 

[SimonMo]

I have optical microscope. Two photos(3,7) are made under 40x magnification and other under 100x

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I have optical microscope. Two photos(3,7) are made under 40x magnification and other under 100x

Yeah, the spicules are the wrong shape to be Chicken Liver Sponge then. Unfortunately, I don't know what kind of sponge you have though.

 

[SimonMo]

Yeah, the spicules are the wrong shape to be Chicken Liver Sponge then. Unfortunately, I don't know what kind of sponge you have though.

On the basis of microscopic photos, are you able to tell whether it is a silicon or calcium sponge?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

On the basis of microscopic photos, are you able to tell whether it is a silicon or calcium sponge?

Supposedly you can tell using a scanning electron microscope (brighter spicules are calcium based), but it's not a surefire thing.

The below is one way you can tell if it's silica or calcium carbonate based:
" 2. Draw some 8% HCl (hydrochloric acid) under the coverslip. Keep your focus on an individual spicule while you do this and watch its response to the acid. HCl reacts with calcium carbonate to form soluble calcium chloride and gaseous carbon dioxide so that the spicule disappears. Silicon does not react with HCl and remains unaffected."

Also, if you want to get a better pic of the spicules (no guarantees it would help get an ID), the following may help:

"If sponge samples are present in the laboratory, use bleach to digest small pieces on slides and examine for spicules.

1. Place a small piece of sponge on a slide and add a drop or two of bleach. Let it sit until bubbles cease to form. The bleach oxidizes the organic material to carbon dioxide and water but leaves the mineral spicules intact. Add a coverslip, remove the excess bleach, and examine the preparation for spicules with the compound microscope at 40X. Go to higher power, if needed, to study the spicules. "

Source for both quotes above:

Oklahoma Biological Survey

The University of Oklahoma

biosurvey.ou.edu

 

[SimonMo]

Supposedly you can tell using a scanning electron microscope (brighter spicules are calcium based), but it's not a surefire thing.

The below is one way you can tell if it's silica or calcium carbonate based:
" 2. Draw some 8% HCl (hydrochloric acid) under the coverslip. Keep your focus on an individual spicule while you do this and watch its response to the acid. HCl reacts with calcium carbonate to form soluble calcium chloride and gaseous carbon dioxide so that the spicule disappears. Silicon does not react with HCl and remains unaffected."

Also, if you want to get a better pic of the spicules (no guarantees it would help get an ID), the following may help:

"If sponge samples are present in the laboratory, use bleach to digest small pieces on slides and examine for spicules.

1. Place a small piece of sponge on a slide and add a drop or two of bleach. Let it sit until bubbles cease to form. The bleach oxidizes the organic material to carbon dioxide and water but leaves the mineral spicules intact. Add a coverslip, remove the excess bleach, and examine the preparation for spicules with the compound microscope at 40X. Go to higher power, if needed, to study the spicules. "

Source for both quotes above:

Oklahoma Biological Survey

The University of Oklahoma

biosurvey.ou.edu

Thanks for the instruction. I will maybe try to do oxidazing tomorrow. Today i did some pictures of the sponge undwater so it may help to identify. Unfortunately i can't do photos under electron microscope and other complicated science things, because i am only a student and I have good quality optical microscope with 1000x maximal magnification. So today i did photos of smaller sample and I believe they are in better quality. What is ineresting on 3. and 4. picture is transparent structure which looks very characteristically and is made of something hard. I found a group of this structures (5.) on the surface of the sponge. Btw I have this sponge for about 3 years and I remind myself it sometimes has darker spots on the surface.What it is?Btw I think it can be helpful information that i get this sponge from local reef store which usually imports stuff from Kenia/Indenesia/Australia and i think this sponge was addition to coral order from exporter so it may be from this parts of the world.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

So today i did photos of smaller sample and I believe they are in better quality. What is ineresting on 3. and 4. picture is transparent structure which looks very characteristically and is made of something hard. I found a group of this structures (5.) on the surface of the sponge.

I am so sorry for the ridiculously late response! I don't know how I missed replying to this, but I totally forgot this thread existed until searching for spicule pics in my old posts.

The clear things are macroalgae of some variety, likely a red/brown macroalgae species (I have a lot of learning to do with those still, particularly with the kinds that superficially resemble what you have there).

Btw I have this sponge for about 3 years and I remind myself it sometimes has darker spots on the surface.What it is?

Dark spots could be all sorts of things - debris (like sand or leftover food particles, for example), new holes forming, algae growth, typical coloration variation for the species, etc.

Btw I think it can be helpful information that i get this sponge from local reef store which usually imports stuff from Kenia/Indenesia/Australia and i think this sponge was addition to coral order from exporter so it may be from this parts of the world.

That could help narrow the search a little. I'll take a closer look (hopefully tomorrow) at this sponge again and see if I can't at least narrow the list to a few likely candidates to look into more now.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Thanks for the instruction. I will maybe try to do oxidazing tomorrow. Today i did some pictures of the sponge undwater so it may help to identify. Unfortunately i can't do photos under electron microscope and other complicated science things, because i am only a student and I have good quality optical microscope with 1000x maximal magnification. So today i did photos of smaller sample and I believe they are in better quality. What is ineresting on 3. and 4. picture is transparent structure which looks very characteristically and is made of something hard. I found a group of this structures (5.) on the surface of the sponge. Btw I have this sponge for about 3 years and I remind myself it sometimes has darker spots on the surface.What it is?Btw I think it can be helpful information that i get this sponge from local reef store which usually imports stuff from Kenia/Indenesia/Australia and i think this sponge was addition to coral order from exporter so it may be from this parts of the world.

So, my best guess at the moment (would need spicule pics to try and confirm) would be either a Suberitid sponge species, likely from the genus Suberites, or a Chondrosia species (this one seems less likely, but I'm not familiar with all of the species in the genus yet).