Unknown toxicity in tank

[ClownWrangler]

I came home in the afternoon and noticed that my flame hawk fish was gasping at the bottom of the tank and pale. My small maroon clowns were swimming about with slightly clamped fins, which they never do, but ate when I fed them. The maroon is at the top of the tank like it wants air, but i have good flow and turnover as well as chaeto under a strong grow light, so there should be no shortage of oxygen. I thought it was a cycle crash, so I immediately took out some water and set it aside for testing and dosed 5ml of prime (20 gallon long tank)


Test results:
Ammonia: 0 (Double checked ammonia with API kit and seachem alert badge)
nitrites:0
nitrates: <5ppm
pH: 8.0
SG: 1.026

these parameters have been very stable for at least 2 months.

Additionally,
My RBTAs were shrunken like they normally do only at night. One of my black widow BTAs was withered like spaghetti, something they it normally do a few times per week but comes back to normal. Another was crawling around on some ogo algae instead of the rock only slightly shrunken. None of the nems are dying as far as I can tell, just all doing their weird nem stuff they normally do occasionally but all at once. I have a new frag rack with zoas, palys a torch and a few other soft and hard corals that I’ve been building up over the last few weeks. They are all out and healthy looking except for the GSP, which I added a little over a week ago and it has only came out a few times. It may be a goner. Could it poison the tank if it's dying? Yesterday everything was happy and healthy and up to this point healthier than when acquired. I also added a plate coral a few days ago, but it looks fine. It's green spikes are out.

 

[ClownWrangler]

As seen here, the zoas and palys are fine. The GSP and a pink ORA flowerpot are the only ones not doing well. But that’s not new. They were added with all the others about 10 days ago. The flower pot hasn’t come out at all and the GSP only came out for a few days then didn’t come out at all. The green flowerpot is healthy as well.

 

[ClownWrangler]

This was yesterday.

 

[ClownWrangler]

Astraea snails have been really chowing down on GHA. That RBTA rock was covered a few weeks ago.

 

[ClownWrangler]

Could this be velvet? Would it hit that fast? no symptoms one day and on the brink of death the next? These fish went through 30 day QT and have been in the tank for a few months. Could it have come in on a frag or the plate? I also added some macro algae from algae barn about a week ago and some Astraea snails.

 

[ClownWrangler]

The nem behavior could have been a coincidence. They are coming back to normal. I may do an 80% water change any way to rule it out before I pull the fish for treatment. Any suggestions?

 

[ClownWrangler]

Ok, based on what I found so far, I'm going with brook. Never thought I'd get something like that from "clean" algae or frags from a reputable frag shop. All I have is CP, so I hope that works.

 

[ClownWrangler]

Ok. Did 80% WC and gave the flame angel and the smaller of the two maroons that was worse off a FW dip before putting them in QT. Lost the Flame hawk and the smaller maroon clown likely wont make it. All the inverts are fine. I will leave the other maroon clown in the tank for a bit longer to make sure it wasn’t just toxins in the water. If it's not better in a few hours, I'll put it in QT with other two.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Ok. Did 80% WC and gave the flame angel and the smaller of the two maroons that was worse off a FW dip before putting them in QT. Lost the Flame hawk and the smaller maroon clown likely wont make it. All the inverts are fine. I will leave the other maroon clown in the tank for a bit longer to make sure it wasn’t just toxins in the water. If it's not better in a few hours, I'll put it in QT with other two.

Sorry - I just woke up. I don't think this is toxic water, your inverts are o.k. The picture seems to show velvet (Amyloodinium). It kills so swiftly that you'll need to get them into a treatment tank ASAP and even then, you may not be able to treat them in time to save them. The fish will need a 5 minute FW dip and then move to a treatment tank with a full dose of copper (I'd use Cupramine and a good test kit if you can).

Jay

 

[ClownWrangler]

Sorry - I just woke up. I don't think this is toxic water, your inverts are o.k. The picture seems to show velvet (Amyloodinium). It kills so swiftly that you'll need to get them into a treatment tank ASAP and even then, you may not be able to treat them in time to save them. The fish will need a 5 minute FW dip and then move to a treatment tank with a full dose of copper (I'd use Cupramine and a good test kit if you can).

Jay

Thanks. Last night I did a 3 min FW dip with potassium permanganate and put the two survivors, a maroon and a flame angel in a 10 gallon QT with 60mg/gal Chloroquine Phosphate. I don’t have cupramine on hand. Is it more effective than CP? I was told that flame angels dont handle copper well.

Also, the flame angel seems to be better allready and the maroon is looking healthier except that it is swimming vertically up and down and occasionally upside down like it has brain damage or vertigo. I agree that it could be velvet, however I need to know for sure if I should treat all my other tanks that could have easily been cross contaminated which would be a huge deal. The picture with the velvety appearance was with the camera flash at a very specific angle to the lighting. It’s not visible otherwise. The other two that died had not visible external defects except that the flame hawk was pale. Are there other things to look for to be sure?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks. Last night I did a 3 min FW dip with potassium permanganate and put the two survivors, a maroon and a flame angel in a 10 gallon QT with 60mg/gal Chloroquine Phosphate. I don’t have cupramine on hand. Is it more effective than CP? I was told that flame angels dont handle copper well.

Also, the flame angel seems to be better allready and the maroon is looking healthier except that it is swimming vertically up and down and occasionally upside down like it has brain damage or vertigo. I agree that it could be velvet, however I need to know for sure if I should treat all my other tanks that could have easily been cross contaminated which would be a huge deal. The picture with the velvety appearance was with the camera flash at a very specific angle to the lighting. It’s not visible otherwise. The other two that died had not visible external defects except that the flame hawk was pale. Are there other things to look for to be sure?

Chloroquine is the best choice, I’ve just not been suggesting it since supplies mostly dried up this past spring due to misuse for COVID.
True confirmation of protozoan diseases really takes a microscope- so many of the symptoms are vague, or apply to multiple diseases
Jay

 

[ClownWrangler]

Chloroquine is the best choice, I’ve just not been suggesting it since supplies mostly dried up this past spring due to misuse for COVID.
True confirmation of protozoan diseases really takes a microscope- so many of the symptoms are vague, or apply to multiple diseases
Jay

Yea, it's unfortunate that we are at the mercy of knee jerk reactionism more and more lately. Luckily I got mine last winter, before all that. It's possible the PP dip removed the velvety stuff, which I assume was excess slime coat. Its an oxidizer, so it partially dissolves the slime coat and kills whatever is residing on it an cleans the gill plates of the fish. I noticed that PP dips are not talked about in the marine hobby at all, but considered in expansible for freshwater fish. I wonder why this is. Its greatly increases the efficacy of tank transfer methods of treatment..

Also, I have been transferring fragments of macro algae between other tanks, which is why I’m concerned for them. Should I pull the fish from them and put them in QT just to be safe or should I just watch them closely for now?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

PP can be tricky to use, and is mainly a FW/pond medication. Some people report odd sensitivity reactions in some species. I'm studying hydrogen peroxide for the same use - now that there is a test strip that can be used to measure it.

Jay

 

[ClownWrangler]

I’m not convinced this is velvet. No white spots on any of the fish dead or alive. The flame angel is fully recovered in less than a day in QT. The maroons fins are dissolving now. The flame angel and maroon are in the same QT. The anemones in the tank in question are still shrunken and /or balled up after major water change. Frags, feather duster and emerald crab showing no signs of distress. There is some recently added red ogo macro algae in the tank looking a little pale. Could it be releasing anything into the water? Chemical warfare between the nems? Bacterial infection from recently added feather duster?

 

[ThePhoReefer]

Believe it or not but sometimes the new nems carry in disease water when it expel its old water and get in your tank water

 

[ThePhoReefer]

best if you quarantine new btas a few days to let them exchange water before introducing to dt

 

[ClownWrangler]

best if you quarantine new btas a few days to let them exchange water before introducing to dt

Thanks. I think I'm dealing with some sort of bacterial infection. I added a feather duster more recently than the nems and the nems were from a breeder, the feather duster from Petco, so it was probably it. There's no way to clean out whatever they might be carrying in their tubes. I may end up turning that tank into an invert only QT tank. I realize now that a permanent established fishless tank is necessary in this hobby for quarantining all inverts. I’ve been meticulous with fish QT, but laxed with inverts up to this point.

 

[ClownWrangler]

I don’t know why I didn’t notice this sooner, but the reason this guy was having trouble swimming is because his pectoral fins are half missing. Now his tail fin is gone. Could the flame angel have done this? I separated him, but it may be too late. Oddly, he Seems very healthy other than the fact that he cant swim.

 

[ClownWrangler]

Two weeks in to QT and the sole survivor just turns into a salted pretzel over the course of 12 hours. Swimming around like nothing is wrong. I wonder if the Chloroquine Phosphate only suppressed it or I accidentally re-contaminated the fish somehow. I guess he's getting another dip. This time I’m going to transfer him to a bucket with 80mg/gal Chloroquine Phosphate and change the water every other day to ensure the medication doesn’t degrade.

 

[ClownWrangler]

Well Jay, you were sot on with the velvet diagnosis. Thank you. It looks like the chloroquine phosphate is working its magic once again. The female flame angel that was infected and cleared of velvet two weeks ago was put in a QT tank with a larger male from the LFS with a divider after a 2 week observation. The guy at the LFS told me they do not QT flames because they do not handle copper well. I failed to consider that the tank had cycled in that time and I added some macro algae from the original contaminated tank thinking a FW dip would kill any tomonts or dinospores. Well, that was a mistake as it did not work. This infected both fish within 24 hours. I removed both fish to a 3 gallon buck with 60mg/gal chloroquine phosphate. I chose a smaller bucket and more frequent water changes to keep the medication level up since I now know it degrades after 2 weeks if you allow the tank to cycle. Within 24 hours, they are already looking much better. They also pared up successfully and are happy together, which was my goal from the beginning.