Unsure what to do

fernalfer · May 18, 2016

OK so I have a 120 gallon setup cycled and ready to go fish less right now with nothing in it. Ghost feeding flake food every now and then just to keep bacteria happy. I bought my first fish 4 days ago and put him in QT tank. A Lemon peel mimic tang. He has a great personality and eats like a pig from day 1 when I brought him home from LFS. Now treatment. Do I just observe this fish for illness or disease or do I actually treat him for stuff he may not even have. I have cupramine and prazipro on hand. Now the prazipro I don't mind giving him to treat for flukes or parasites but treating with copper to a fish that is in great looking healthy condition bothers me. I almost feel I may take this healthy, happy, hungry fish and possible hurt him or even degrade his overall health by treating him for stuff he may not even have. Tough time stressing a unstressed fish for no reason. Please help me with this concept and what I should do moving forward. I mean he is my first fish so it's not like he can go into my main display and wipe out the tank, it's empty. And catching him if he does come down with something will be easy because when I put my hand in the tank he comes right up to me. Like I said very outgoing fish. Hate to keep him in a 20 gallon QT if he really does not need to be. I understand the concept behind quarantine fish, but not sure I agree using toxic substances to treat a fish that may not even be sick. (Kind of like telling someone we are going to give you chemotherapy just incase you have cancer)

miyags · May 18, 2016

I would leave fish in qt for a min of 4 weeks.I'd go 6 to 8.The fish is fine in a 20gl.Just keep the water changes up.

michellejy · May 18, 2016

I am not a person who treats without signs of illness. Definitely give yourself extra time (the 6 weeks mentioned) for something to show up in case there is anything wrong though.

4FordFamily · May 18, 2016

The problem is that many times fish have a high resistance to a parasite but are carriers. My entire collection of reef tanks chock blocked full of fish until two years ago as a case in point. They had ich for ten years in the system. New fish were occasionally affected and died but the residents were not.

However, I eventually decided I wanted to keep more beautiful, rare, and or difficult to keep fish like regal angels, Achilles tangs, powder blue tangs, many lg angels, and many other tangs, copperband butterflies, moorish idol, among many others and that "ich management" method did not work I killed far more fish than I should have expecting them to be as hardy and capable of building resistance as my long time inhabitants. Not the case.

So my process right now to continue to keep parasites out is to do TTM on all new fish for the full 4 transfers and then observe in my quarantine for several weeks for velvet symptoms since it's not affected by TTM and can rear its ugly head in as many as 4 weeks. Fish like wrasse can actually live without obvious symptoms with velvet for extended period of time, even a year or more based on their mucous coats, hardiness, and the fact that many burrow under the sand so strict observation can and will eventually bite you. Been there done that.

If symptoms arise, it's coppersafe time.

Humblefish · May 18, 2016

^^TTM is the way to go for those who stress over prophylactically medicating their fish: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

After just 13 days you will have a fish that is free of the two "hidden diseases" - ich and flukes. (The latter assumes you dosed Prazipro whilst doing TTM.)

After that, just 2-3 weeks of additional passive observation is required to observe for symptoms of velvet, brook, bacterial infections, etc. Most of these diseases have obvious physical symptoms; and with velvet you will at least notice these behavioral symptoms:

Reduced or complete loss of appetite.
Heavy breathing, rubbing, flashing, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior (unfortunately velvet shares all these same symptoms with ich & gill flukes.)
Swimming into the flow of a powerhead (unique to velvet).
Acting reclusive (velvet causes fish to be sensitive to light).

fernalfer · May 18, 2016

Humblefish said:
^^TTM is the way to go for those who stress over prophylactically medicating their fish: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

After just 13 days you will have a fish that is free of the two "hidden diseases" - ich and flukes. (The latter assumes you dosed Prazipro whilst doing TTM.)

After that, just 2-3 weeks of additional passive observation is required to observe for symptoms of velvet, brook, bacterial infections, etc. Most of these diseases have obvious physical symptoms; and with velvet you will at least notice these behavioral symptoms:

Reduced or complete loss of appetite.

Heavy breathing, rubbing, flashing, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior (unfortunately velvet shares all these same symptoms with ich & gill flukes.)

Swimming into the flow of a powerhead (unique to velvet).

Acting reclusive (velvet causes fish to be sensitive to light).

Ok so whats my route if i don't do TTM with this fish. I'm not properly setup with stuff for 2 seperate tanks. Maybe i'll read about TTM and do that for the fish going forward but for now this fish is settled in the 20 gallon he is in now. It was seeded with a sponge from main DT so ammonia levels are great=0 Nitrate sometimes hits 0.25 but shortly goes to 0 thereafter. Should i do a couple rounds of prazipro and observe for a few weeks after prazi for ick. Or should i just go ahead and treat with Cupramine and hope for the best that it does not screw up his pleasant behavoirs.

Humblefish · May 18, 2016

fernalfer said:
Ok so whats my route if i don't do TTM with this fish. I'm not properly setup with stuff for 2 seperate tanks. Maybe i'll read about TTM and do that for the fish going forward but for now this fish is settled in the 20 gallon he is in now. It was seeded with a sponge from main DT so ammonia levels are great=0 Nitrate sometimes hits 0.25 but shortly goes to 0 thereafter. Should i do a couple rounds of prazipro and observe for a few weeks after prazi for ick. Or should i just go ahead and treat with Cupramine and hope for the best that it does not screw up his pleasant behavoirs.

Being tangs are such ich magnets, I would probably go ahead & treat with Cupramine. Just go slow with it - take 4 or 5 days to ramp it up to full therapeutic. If the fish stops eating, stop raising the Cu until he resumes.

fernalfer · May 18, 2016

Humblefish said:
Being tangs are such ich magnets, I would probably go ahead & treat with Cupramine. Just go slow with it - take 4 or 5 days to ramp it up to full therapeutic. If the fish stops eating, stop raising the Cu until he resumes.

What are the long term effects of treating with copper-(Cupramine)? Am i reducing his life span by treating him with it. They say it is toxic to the fish, that can't be good. Especially if he is does not even have Ick.

Trust me i want to treat but want the safest method to the fish. TTM seems like that would stress the hell out of the fish being moved back and forth like that. Especially after just coming home from LFS and being drip acclimated and then thrown in yet another tank the one he is currently in. Now to go and do TTM i feel will do more harm then good.

Humblefish · May 18, 2016

fernalfer said:
What are the long term effects of treating with copper-(Cupramine)? Am i reducing his life span by treating him with it. They say it is toxic to the fish, that can't be good. Especially if he is does not even have Ick.

To my knowledge, no serious studies have been done on the long term health effects of treating fish with copper. However, anecdotally speaking, I've had tangs & angels live 10-15 years that were treated with copper. I can't say that about formalin though (18-24 months).

fernalfer said:
Trust me i want to treat but want the safest method to the fish. TTM seems like that would stress the hell out of the fish being moved back and forth like that. Especially after just coming home from LFS and being drip acclimated and then thrown in yet another tank the one he is currently in. Now to go and do TTM i feel will do more harm then good.

I've done TTM on literally hundreds of fish (for my own personal collection). I've had the highest success rate using this method. And I've experimented with many different QT protocols.

fernalfer · May 18, 2016

Humblefish said:
To my knowledge, no serious studies have been done on the long term health effects of treating fish with copper. However, anecdotally speaking, I've had tangs & angels live 10-15 years that were treated with copper. I can't say that about formalin though (18-24 months).

I've done TTM on literally hundreds of fish (for my own personal collection). I've had the highest success rate using this method. And I've experimented with many different QT protocols.

So if i go out and grab the 2 tanks for TTM i only need an airstone? no HOB filter or sponge filter needed since they will be in tank for no longer then 3 days.

obviously, 2 heaters, 2 thermometers, aswell. I already have prime on hand incase ammonia becomes an issue. I guess i'm hesitant because this TTM is so new to me and hate having to subject what seems to be a happy, healthy fish right now to 15 days of stress bopping back and forth between 2 tanks. Plus the fact he is in a 20 gallon QT now and i'll be buying 2 10 gallons to do TTM. So it will already be a downgrade right off the bat.