Upgrading from MH to LED

[Jmar101786]

Currently i'm 8" off the water with a few dark spots do I planned on moving to 9" off the water to help light those dark spots.

maybe that extra inch will help too...I just don't want to change too much too fast...this LED technology is all Greek to me

 

[evan.lundberg4]

Currently i'm 8" off the water with a few dark spots do I planned on moving to 9" off the water to help light those dark spots.

maybe that extra inch will help too...I just don't want to change too much too fast...this LED technology is all Greek to me

I would leave the intensity where it's at and maybe dial back the length of time they're on. Plus if you raise them that will help dial things back. It's hard because you have to try and judge how your coral is reacting to the lighting i.e. whether it's retracting/bleaching or reaching for more light. These are just some things that I've read about LED switch over and it's what I use to come to my opinion.

 

[Jmar101786]

My corals are all acting different...my zoas are stretching...my pagoda is receding and my red planet is dull...I'd have shift a lot around it seems.

If that's what I have to do then so be it...I just don't want to do too much because I am concerned and end up doing more damage than good

 

[KologneKoral]

What % are you running the colours at? Stretching polyps may indicate too little from the white spectrum. Also, make changes slowly, but 5% per week is fine.

 

[Jmar101786]

I'm not sure what each color spectrum percentage is exactly. I am using the preset radiant graph on ecotechs user interface site. I will be able to look for sure when I get home later.

I'd really like to look now, but because of too much internet use they locked down the internet here at work.

I know that I started the acclimation cycle at 32.5% and it will gradually go up on its own for 5 weeks ending at 65%

So after 2 weeks id say I am close to 45.5%

 

[Jmar101786]

Here is the graph on at the peak of the day -

 

[CaliO]

Hope you get everything dialed in, although I have seen great coral color and growth from led's. I know I had a heck of a time with my DIY led set and ended up starting at 10% and raising 1% a day until I maxed out (bleaching started)

But I was wondering if you would sell your 400w Radium 20k bulbs? I am playing with a few ballasts and dont want to blow a $85 bulb testing.. If the ballast gets smoked I'm less concerned.

I would pay for shipping of course, and sry to hi-jack but this goes for anyone willing to part with old 400w Radium 20k bulbs as well... Not looking to spend more than $10-$15 a piece... Starting a thread as well...

Best of luck with your reef

 

[mcarroll]

You should have a lux meter to compare old and new light levels. Handhelds are cheap on AmazBay and you can get a free one on your smartphone so there are no excuses.

Also there's no good reason to guess at the correct fixture height. You know the coverage you need, you should know the lenses your LEDs came with - it's simple triangle math to compute the height you need. (Throw the info out here and we can run the numbers.)

Fwiw, keeping the lights low is not likely to cause any permanent harm, but starting too high or ramping too quickly are sure to be damaging. I think you're on about the right track here.

-Matt

 

[CaliO]

You should have a lux meter to compare old and new light levels. Handhelds are cheap on AmazBay and you can get a free one on your smartphone so there are no excuses.

Also there's no good reason to guess at the correct fixture height. You know the coverage you need, you should know the lenses your LEDs came with - it's simple triangle math to compute the height you need. (Throw the info out here and we can run the numbers.)

Fwiw, keeping the lights low is not likely to cause any permanent harm, but starting too high or ramping too quickly are sure to be damaging. I think you're on about the right track here.

-Matt

Lux measuring wouldn't do you any good. Leds can not be measured accurately by lux or even par. They are too wavelength specific. Not to mention your phone will not even close to measuring real lux.. maxes out at 13000lux I believe..

I found that if I measured par it was always super low. But soon realized because the less of other wavelengths it was going to be lower than expected. Personally I would mount them where you like them and increase/decrease as needed.

 

[DSP]

Okay - So here we are - 13 Day into the LED upgrade and I am concerned at the moment. I have some corals that have stayed the same - such as a Bubble Gum Monster chalice and a Miami Hurricane chalice which both sit on my sand bed and have not changed one bit. While I have other corals such as my Pagoda cup and my Cyphastrea which hardly open up and look like garbage....and then I have my bonsai and my red planet which have dulled out a lot. I am fearful and brave at the same time, part of me wants to push forward and just see if this is a low point that I need to get passed before the BIG improvement and the other part wants to run to my garage, wipe down my metal halides and put them back up. So... there we are - 13 days in and conflicted on what to do :/

Sry to hear ya downgraded to leds it could take a while for everything to acclimate to them but it wouldnt be a bad choice to get the old halides ready to rock again! Im a halide fan of course and wish ya luck with the leds keep us posted!

 

[KologneKoral]

Seeing the high percentages in the blue to UV range, I would advise you to lower these to 69% or so, otherwise you will stress the corals. Quality LEDs are generally much more powerfull than halide and T-5, plus the white range is new to most corals. You have a very complex spectrum now, when before it was relatvely simply.

The biggest mistake aquarists make with LEDs is running them too high, especially at the beginning. I start at 50% for blues, 30% for UV and 40% for CW at first, to give the corals a chance to develope protection. By raising the % about 5% per week, keeping an eye open for stress and being patient, I have never lost a coral to LED lighting. My end amounts are typically 50%-60% CW, 50% UV-Violet, 80%-90% RB and 100% Blue. This is based on Cree XT-E and XP-E, plus Semi-Leds in the UV-Violet.

Don't worry about PAR. Spectrum is what counts. The mix and intensities. PAR is way over rated and you can forget things like Kelvin right now. Meaningless with LEDs.

Jamie

 

[mcarroll]

Lux measuring wouldn't do you any good. Leds can not be measured accurately by lux or even par. They are too wavelength specific. Not to mention your phone will not even close to measuring real lux.. maxes out at 13000lux I believe..

I found that if I measured par it was always super low. But soon realized because the less of other wavelengths it was going to be lower than expected. Personally I would mount them where you like them and increase/decrease as needed.

We're not looking for accurate lux readings, we're looking for comparable ones - and that, any of the lux meters I mentioned, can do.

Most people just never take the time to experiment because they think what you just said - which are all misconceptions - but a lux meter is a fine tool for our minimal purposes. Same can really be said of our calcium test kits - they're not really accurate at all. But the results we get are useful because they are comparable. In other words, they are wrong, but they are consistently wrong. As a result, in that case, we don't even think about the accuracy.

Don't just knock it, try it!

-Matt

 

[ReefLEDLights]

We're not looking for accurate lux readings, we're looking for comparable ones - and that, any of the lux meters I mentioned, can do.

Most people just never take the time to experiment because they think what you just said - which are all misconceptions - but a lux meter is a fine tool for our minimal purposes. Same can really be said of our calcium test kits - they're not really accurate at all. But the results we get are useful because they are comparable. In other words, they are wrong, but they are consistently wrong. As a result, in that case, we don't even think about the accuracy.

Don't just knock it, try it!

-Matt

Totally agree.

I've done numerous measurements with a LUX and PAR Meter side by side and the relationship is close to linear.

An aquarium light that offers twice the LUX of another light will offer about twice the PAR give or take some.

One thing to remember is LEDs are more powerful than advertised especially when compared to the PAR of a T5 or MH

Bill

 

[TJ's Reef]

+1 on Jamie's post #31 above, even though you were running 400w MH's with the blue/violet LED levels set where they are IMHO is producing quite a bit more then they were used to. Typical reaction of Coral to getting a sudden increase/change of PUR is to shed excess symbiotic algae (bleaching) or have algae populations change to better adapt to the color shift (brown out). I'm two years in on using my DIY full-spectrum LED array and could not be happier with all aspects of it. I specifically built mine to emulate the Phoenix 14K lamp and feel its even better or at least more stable/consistent light source. When changing over from MH/T5/VHO you still need to match overall spectrum or you will have Coral issues just as you would changing from 250w 12K to a 400w 20K MH lamp.
And once again IMHO light meters are just not very accurate for measuring LED's for our needs, photons are photons but they are so very narrow in spectrum by comparison and without much visable 'garbage' light to get measured. I to have played with several meters and trying to compare an LED with anything else is very rough at best because they are not equivalent light sources. Coral and their symbiotic algae are used to or have adapted to a much broader spectrum then most LED fixtures provide and IMHO and IME whole heartily believe they need or we need fro them not to change by way of adding the missing Reds, Greens and Yellows in appropriate percentages. I would not run a LED fixture without Red or Green/Cyan, in my experience they make a very noticeable difference in a positive way. Anywho....always here to chime in or butt in depending on your view....lol

Cheers, Todd

 

[ReefLEDLights]

Todd

I've had excellent results using the Cree Cool White. The Luxion M also enjoys similar full spectrum properties. Both are for the most part full spectrum with the exception of Red. Inother words it includes plenty of greens and yellow. Depending in the bin maybe too much.

Red is the first light blocked and after 20-30 feet is virtually non-existant. The corals have adapted very well to use the spectrum between 410-460nm for primary photosynthesis.

As an experiment I grew birdsnest frags using only the 450nm Royal Blue. Growth was the same as the frags under a fuller spectrum.

I've always considered these tertiary colours more of a marketing gimmick as they do little for growth and are already provided in the Cree and Luxion Whites. For a warmer look adding some warm whites will cover the red side while providing a bit of 450nm for growth.

That said looks are subjective and some do like the look of extra green and red.

Bill

 

[TJ's Reef]

Hey Bill, your absolutely right in that the corals mostly only need the Blue spectrum to grow with a little into the Green/Cyan range especially in majority of wild Corals being in 10 to 30 meters but most all of our corals have adapted to less than 30" of aquarium or less than 20' in Mari-culture facilities. Using my tank and Coral as an example I'll say that I would not like just Blue and CW emitters as several specimens I've chosen would look very bland in said spectrum ie Yellow Sarcophyton (Fiji Leather) would go dull brown and Hot Pink Stylophora turn dull purple brown unless pinpointed under CW's with 40* optics. Many of the bright Pink zoanthids or Pink tipped Acros as well as my large Rose Milli colony need the added Red and small amount of Yellow provided by my mix of 6500K, 8K and 10K Whites to show true color. These shallow water Corals (symbiotic algae) may not need the Reds/Yellows to grow but they have adapted to and colored up to such light and by removing it will change and to my liking not for the better. To your Blue & CW experiment I ran a Blue & Red only Grow Light for a period of time over my fuge and had spectacular growth in Macro Algae as well as a variety of frags placed under them. They looked horrendous without white light to see them, but under it they were all very well colored. I know that there is this big debate on the necessity of Red in the light spectrum and in my opinion far from a Marketing Gimmick stand by my statement that I would never run a Reeftank without it, benefits are far greater than not. I want to see colors other than Greens and Oranges pop/ fluoresce in my tank and strongly prefer a more natural shallow water Reef look than the 20+K Avatar approach. I think that what made the Phoenix 14K one of the most appreciated lamps of its day was its full spectrum beyond the primary Blue wavelength and why I spent so many hours replicating it on my build. Originally when assembling my mix of emitters found that to get enough of the Red 620-650nm range using Warm Whites or even what would become Neutral Whites they would provide to much Yellow to Green so adjusted thinking by eliminating the WW's and adding just the amount of Red needed IMO. Whites being basically Blue emitters with a phosphorous coating for refraction already have significant Blue as a base color and why I believe there is so many issues with Blue & Whites only fixtures, by the time the light is balanced looking to our eyes the Corals/Algae are near overdose levels of 450-460nm spectrum thus expelling their associated zooxanthellae (bleaching)
Anyway, love these debates or discussions and a great way to educate the masses overall. Being in the LED business I'm sure you are as frustrated as I am about all the mis-information to outright fabricated and regurgitated myths about LED's and can clearly remember a few decades ago such similar talks/articles about the then NEW use of Actinics (long before internet)

Cheers, Todd

Cheers, Todd

 

[ReefLEDLights]

Todd

Its great to have a well informed discussion on the "best" LED set up.

This may not be the right place but the information we both provide may be valuable to others.

Here are a couple of charts showing the spectrum of light at depth along with a chart that shows no SPS Coral Pigments are receptive to the red.

This along with what looks best in our tanks influences my opinion on what is best.

There is no doubt that a little Red may enhance the looks of some acans and fish but for my tank I can simply live without it and given design constraints I would prefer a Royal Blue or Warm White depending on colour taste.

It think we are talking about who is better looking...Ginger or Mary Ann...Lots of Debate...

For Me. I prefer the girl without excessive makeup...Not that there is anything wrong with girls who wear makeup....

Bill

 

[mcarroll]

I think it not only fits with this thread, but the more times this Mary-Ann vs Ginger characterization can be made the better! (I'm going to steal the heck out of that analogy. LOL.)

The additional colors aren't "bad" but they are superfluous - like makeup on Ginger. I bet she was cute even without!

I think there's also just a little bit of wishful snobbery involved. A little like people who buy expensive wine don't want to think a $5 bottle of wine can be just as good, so people think about a "basic" b+w LED fixture. More expensive wine is not better and "more colorful" lights aren't either. People are still welcome (more than welcome, by some) to spend money on the expensive wines and "more colorful" lights though!

Now that I think of it, TV mfgr's used to sell more expensive "extra black" TV tubes with the same sales pitch....when you could only really tell the difference between the "cheaper" picture and the "blacker" one when the two TV sets were side by side. Turns out vision is subjective and our brain gets used to either one and sees what it needs to. They both look fine by themselves - but one definitively costs more!

-Matt

 

[TJ's Reef]

Excellent, I have seen and studied those and similar charts for many years and quite aware of fluorescing pigments as well light spectrum depth penetration they show. Which exactly proves my point in being natural or 'wholesome next-door girl like Mary anne' we're recreating a shallow water Reef that most of us has seen in film, pictures or in person and this full spectrum light includes a fair amount of Red, Orange, Yellow and Green wavelength looking like this picture below.


And sometimes from very shallow Reefs


Full spectrum LED fixture over Reef Tank (not mine as I am a terrible photographer)


The 'Natural' 20K setting

If you add some of the Red, Orange, Yellow and Green with a 3000K ? flash



Does anyone actually want or like what is beyond the reach of the flash in pics above ???

Then if we Tramp 'Mary Anne' up a bit and give her a whole bunch of Blue Eye Shadow to look like 'Ginger' we have............


I don't know exactly what this above guy has his Reeftank lit with, so guessing high Kelvin MH lamps

Beautiful ? Absolutely..... Natural, Mary Anne like ? Hardly. To be so called 'Natural' under this lighting spectrum/type an average Reeftank would only be lit with a small fraction of emitters these fixtures actually have and then making them a Deepwater Reef in which the fluorescence would be minimal to our eyes. Most Pinks and Yellow Corals need the warmer light colors to show true color, though not a fluorescing pigment they will naturally pop glow under full spectrum and fade under typical Blue/20K settings without Red and Green added.

As far as expenses go, you can purchase some really nice full spectrum fixtures for $200 - $300 full retail (from a R2R Sponsor) and with or without all the 'Fancy expensive add-ons' IMHO of proprietary controllers not needed with use of your Apex, Reef Keeper or similar controllers which do much much more for the money.

Sorry for late response, was away for the weekend without adequate internet access.

Cheers, Todd

 

[gobeach]

Currently i'm 8" off the water with a few dark spots do I planned on moving to 9" off the water to help light those dark spots.

maybe that extra inch will help too...I just don't want to change too much too fast...this LED technology is all Greek to me

How did the LED transition go?