Urchin upside down

[Sfburg]

Hi! New member here. I recently moved from fresh water to salt.
I’ve had my 25g set up and cycled (about 6 weeks). Two days ago I introduced a little urchin. Had a little scare last night. He lost a couple of spines. I confirmed my chemistry was green across the board. My vendor checked the salinity level and it’s good.
This morning, my little guy was moving along the sand and all along the live rock. And no additional spines have been lost. Just now I saw him at the water line - upside down. It looks like he’s trying to feed. His little teeth(?) cycle in and out. Looks like he’s pulling food in.
So. Standard question: is this normal? I’ll be going to the store to get some nori. I’m worried he doesn’t have enough algae to eat.

any feedback would be appreciated.

 

[slojim]

If it is mouth to glass, that's pretty normal. Conditions for algae are good at the waterline. But the picture seems like it might be mouth up at the surface. That's not normal for my tuxedo urchin

 

[AcroNem]

I have many urchins, and they do all sorts of weird things. If it isn't dropping spines it's usually just fine.

 

[andrewey]

I'm not trying to say this to be negative or scare you, but I would definitely think a lot about possibly returning the urchin pretty soon. Unrelated to the dropping spines (which is never a good sign and could be from osmotic shock, ph shock, dropping spines due to starvation long term, etc.), a newly cycled 25 gallon is unlikely to be able to sustain an urchin. Even with extremely mature live rock, an urchin can quickly decimate the food source and will slowly starve over a period of weeks/months. I know they can be fantastic little creatures, but usually I wouldn't put an urchin into any tank until the tank was 6-12 months old so I knew I could grow macroalgaes as fast as the urchin could eat them (and I personally wouldn't advise keeping an urchin of that size in a 25g long term). It's your tank, but I think you might be happier having a cool invert that won't slowly starve on you. There's plenty of really cool nano-sized inverts. Just food for thought.

 

[andrewey]

Also, can you provide more information about what your chemistry was? Green across the board can mean a lot of things, so a bit more information would definitely be helpful. More importantly, how did you acclimate the urchin and what were the water parameters of the water he came in vs. your water? Lastly, do you own a refractometer or hydrometer?

 

[andrewey]

Lastly, Welcome to Reef2Reef!!!! After we help you with your urchin, we'd love to know more about your tank and your journey into the world of reefkeeping! Feel free to make a post on the Meet & Greet Forum- we're a friendly bunch here and would love to help you on your journey!

 

[BZOFIQ]

I've seen them do that if there is film on the water surface. They are actually pretty funny for such slow moving animal.

 

[jeffchapok]

I have to agree with Andrewey. The little guy is unlikely to survive long in a new tank. It would be better to return it or find someone else with a mature tank to take it off your hands. You can always get another one later.

 

[AcroNem]

I do agree with the above. Or, if you could, supplement its diet with nori sheets or other algae to keep it fed. I do this even in the most mature systems.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Agree with posters above. Needs established tank with plenty of food to snack on.

 

[Sfburg]

If it is mouth to glass, that's pretty normal. Conditions for algae are good at the waterline. But the picture seems like it might be mouth up at the surface. That's not normal for my tuxedo urchin

Yes. He’s mouth to surface. I gently turned him over and he sank to the bottom and is now moving along. I’ll keep checking on him throughout the day

 

[Sfburg]

Thanks everyone - I’ll grab him some snacks this afternoon

 

[Sfburg]

I'm not trying to say this to be negative or scare you, but I would definitely think a lot about possibly returning the urchin pretty soon. Unrelated to the dropping spines (which is never a good sign and could be from osmotic shock, ph shock, dropping spines due to starvation long term, etc.), a newly cycled 25 gallon is unlikely to be able to sustain an urchin. Even with extremely mature live rock, an urchin can quickly decimate the food source and will slowly starve over a period of weeks/months. I know they can be fantastic little creatures, but usually I wouldn't put an urchin into any tank until the tank was 6-12 months old so I knew I could grow macroalgaes as fast as the urchin could eat them (and I personally wouldn't advise keeping an urchin of that size in a 25g long term). It's your tank, but I think you might be happier having a cool invert that won't slowly starve on you. There's plenty of really cool nano-sized inverts. Just food for thought.

Thank you for the advice! My local vendor did tell me he will swap him out when he gets larger. I’ll check in with him as he is the one that recommended the stock and set up my tank for saltwater.
In the meantime I’ll grab some Nori for him.

 

[Sfburg]

Also, can you provide more information about what your chemistry was? Green across the board can mean a lot of things, so a bit more information would definitely be helpful. More importantly, how did you acclimate the urchin and what were the water parameters of the water he came in vs. your water? Lastly, do you own a refractometer or hydrometer?

Ammonia has been consistently at or around .005 -
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
held at that level about 4 days before introducing the soft coral, urchin, blood shrimp
Granted the tests aren’t precise. I’m using a saltwater test from API

I ordered a refractometer last night though my vendor tested it before stock introduction (luckily he lives closeby)

 

[Sfburg]

I do agree with the above. Or, if you could, supplement its diet with nori sheets or other algae to keep it fed. I do this even in the most mature systems.

how does one feed them? I’ve read where people push the nori sheet between their mouth and the glass. But that’s only when they are at the top of the tank. Do you tie pieces to rock? Do you crumble it and make it settle to the bottom?

 

[andrewey]

I wouldn't try and feed them directly. Too much chance of hurting the urchin or stressing. You can always rubber band the nori to a piece of live rock and let it sink into the tank. When you say ammonia .005, do you mean 0.5ppm? As far as I know, the API ammonia test goes 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1, etc.

Thank you for the advice! My local vendor did tell me he will swap him out when he gets larger. I’ll check in with him as he is the one that recommended the stock and set up my tank for saltwater.
In the meantime I’ll grab some Nori for him.

Lastly, no disrespect to your local vendor as I don't know everything they said, but swapping out an urchin when it gets "larger" is not really something I would ever suggest to a new hobbyists (to be honest, I would never suggest it to any hobbyist). The hobby is full of learning and making mistakes (there are a thousand to make), however, a vendor shouldn't be selling you livestock that you must get rid of as they get larger to a first time reefer. Once again, I don't know the experience of your vendor, their motivations, or even what was said, but I would suggest you stock for the tank you currently have- not stock with the idea of using it as a holding tank until things grow too large. . Your urchin will grow a bit, but is actually pretty large from the pictures and one I would already call mature. To be honest, at this size, I believe the urchin is already too large for such a young tank. I'm not trying to demean someone I never met, but my unsolicited advise for you would be to utilize this forum to its full potential. All the advice we give is for the betterment of you as a reefer and for the safety of our animals. We don't make any money by telling you to buy something or not buy something. With future livestock purchases, it's always a safe bet to ask the community whether the fish/coral/invert is something that makes sense for your particular tank. I had my fair share of sellers when I was first starting out that sold me animals that were completely inappropriate, simply because it made them money and I didn't know any better. Like I said, I don't know if that's what is happening here (and for all I know it's not), but it never hurts to get an independent second opinion!

 

[Sfburg]

I wouldn't try and feed them directly. Too much chance of hurting the urchin or stressing. You can always rubber band the nori to a piece of live rock and let it sink into the tank. When you say ammonia .005, do you mean 0.5ppm? As far as I know, the API ammonia test goes 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1, etc.



Lastly, no disrespect to your local vendor as I don't know everything they said, but swapping out an urchin when it gets "larger" is not really something I would ever suggest to a new hobbyists (to be honest, I would never suggest it to any hobbyist). The hobby is full of learning and making mistakes (there are a thousand to make), however, a vendor shouldn't be selling you livestock that you must get rid of as they get larger to a first time reefer. Once again, I don't know the experience of your vendor, their motivations, or even what was said, but I would suggest you stock for the tank you currently have- not stock with the idea of using it as a holding tank until things grow too large. . Your urchin will grow a bit, but is actually pretty large from the pictures and one I would already call mature. To be honest, at this size, I believe the urchin is already too large for such a young tank. I'm not trying to demean someone I never met, but my unsolicited advise for you would be to utilize this forum to its full potential. All the advice we give is for the betterment of you as a reefer and for the safety of our animals. We don't make any money by telling you to buy something or not buy something. With future livestock purchases, it's always a safe bet to ask the community whether the fish/coral/invert is something that makes sense for your particular tank. I had my fair share of sellers when I was first starting out that sold me animals that were completely inappropriate, simply because it made them money and I didn't know any better. Like I said, I don't know if that's what is happening here (and for all I know it's not), but it never hurts to get an independent second opinion!

Your advise is well intentioned and self evident - so no more qualifiers . Seriously what little time I’ve had In this community I’m impressed with the prompt and honest feedback. I’ll discuss with him your thread. I’ll couch it in an unassuming way. He’s been around awhile and has great yelp reviews (for what that’s worth).
As far as the testing. Yes it’s in PPM. I guesstimated the number. The color zone is 0 -.25ppm. I’d say it’s not zero but definitely not at .24 or so.
I’ll drop a piece of tied nori down. As of right now he’s moving around on the rock. I’ll see if I can’t get a better photo for a size reference
I would estimate the length of his body is 1.25 inch. ?

 

[andrewey]

By the way, in case you weren't aware, those API ammonia tests are famous for being a little "funky" to interpret. I now understand what you meant by 0.005 and I wouldn't worry about the color. In truth, I've never gotten an API test to tell me I have exactly 0- I think the printed color on the card just doesn't line up. My tanks that have been running for years give me the same color- more than 0, but less than 0.25. If you want to see for yourself, make some new saltwater or even use RO water. You'll likely get the same color . Fresh saltwater (assuming it ran through a proper RODI filter) should be useful to set your "base point" for future assessments.

 

[Sfburg]

By the way, in case you weren't aware, those API ammonia tests are famous for being a little "funky" to interpret. I now understand what you meant by 0.005 and I wouldn't worry about the color. In truth, I've never gotten an API test to tell me I have exactly 0- I think the printed color on the card just doesn't line up. My tanks that have been running for years give me the same color- more than 0, but less than 0.25. If you want to see for yourself, make some new saltwater or even use RO water. You'll likely get the same color . Fresh saltwater (assuming it ran through a proper RODI filter) should be useful to set your "base point" for future assessments.

Update:
He seems to be doing better. He made a beeline to the nori. Seriously. Kinda quick. He’s sucking it down. Mr. Shrimp came out of his cave and is acting like he wants a bit