Using double DIY ATO to dose 2-part?

Ahruk · Oct 5, 2015

Okay so for the past year I've been running nano as a simply as humanly possible (Pump, light, heater and waterchanges-20% every week or 40% every other week) and everything has been looking great. But recently with a huge corralline algae growth spurt and mounting love for montis, I've grown increasingly worried about not being able to replenish my alk and calc (not to mention the swings which the waterchanges no doubt bring). So I finally decided to begin testing and dosing 2-part plus mag (our salt water is consistently low). The results were let's just say disturbing... I honestly have no idea how the h#ll my montis look so good (I feel like my sunset which I've had for over a year has just learned to live with wild 2+ dkh point swings in a day) Anyway so now I'm concerned about what will happen when I go away for a weekend or on vacation for a week+ once they've gotten used to the stability that dosing should hopefully bring. My question is could I possibly mix the two part into the DIY autotop water either seperately ALK in one and calc in the other or together? Also could I add mag to one of them as well? I did look into kalkwasser before but I really didn't understand it and am kind of scared to try it... Thanks for any advice/input

EDIT: Here's a picture of my "ATO"

Marquiseo · Oct 5, 2015

Adding the contents separately ( you can't and shouldn't mix the Ca and ALK) to RO/DI water will only dilute it further but also not be exact because the ATO is based on evaporation and not uptake of calcium and alkalinity. Your best bet is to get a doser such as the BRS dosers with a timer and have it to dispense the dosage amount daily. With magnesium, it depletes the slowest. If your magnesium is at the desired range , you shouldn't need to dose or adjust it for weeks. You can continue to dose it manually as needed.

Marquiseo · Oct 5, 2015

Nope, it won't work as intended. You will come home to a disaster because alkalinity overdosed in your system.

Ahruk · Oct 5, 2015

Doesn't it get dilluted the second I put it in the tank anyways? Also I'm okay with it not being exact (I'm not keeping acros and as I've said my stuff is apparently fine with 2+ point changes which I find hard to believe) but I'd like it to not sink all the way. I know roughly how much evaporation I get and I'd probably lean towards the side of caution (slightly under dosing). I'd really like to know WHY it wouldn't work...

Marquiseo · Oct 5, 2015

Ahruk said:
Doesn't it get dilluted the second I put it in the tank anyways? Also I'm okay with it not being exact (I'm not keeping acros and as I've said my stuff is apparently fine with 2+ point changes which I find hard to believe) but I'd like it to not sink all the way. I know roughly how much evaporation I get and I'd probably lean towards the side of caution (slightly under dosing). I'd really like to know WHY it wouldn't work...

A certain concentration of the Alk is needed to raise your tank's alkalinity by a certain degree amount. So if you pour it in RO water instead of dosing it directly into the tank, you have diluted the original concentration and will need more just to raise the alkalinity than what you originally calculated. You aren't keeping acros but you are keeping SPS (montiporas). Here is a pic of a tank which was overdosed with ALK supplement:

Pretty much everything will be dead when you arrive back from your weekend or vacation due to overly elevated pH and alkalinity.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 5, 2015

Dilution of a two part is no concern.

Combining the parts is never OK outside of the aquarium (even in diluted form).

One concern with the above DIY setup is getting both jugs to actually dispense, rather than just the one that is very slightly higher in the water. Do you get both to drain simultaneously?

A second concern is that some of the high alk dose water will be mixing at the interface with seawater, which will lead to precipitation of calcium carbonate just up inside the container.

A cheap DIY is a dripper, either for limewater (kalkwasser) or for each part of a two part. Some folks have used an IV. Anything with a very slow drip can work if you can control it.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 5, 2015

Depending on what magnesium you have, you may be able to combine it into the calcium part, but that's hardly necessary Once every 2-4 weeks should be plenty for magnesium dosing.

Nano sapiens · Oct 5, 2015

Old pic from back in 2009:

...and still using the setup successfully with Kalkwasser for calcium and alkalinity replenishment. You can dilute Kalkwasser with RO/DI in the same container (unlike '2-Part' where the two products shouldn't be combined together) in whatever ratio is required to maintain parameters. Obviously, in this case it doesn't matter which bottle empties first.

Longest vacation using this system was 2 weeks (with a few modifications to reduce evap).

Making a saturated solution of Kalkwasser is quite simple, actually. Best reference is probably Randy's articles

Ahruk · Oct 5, 2015

They don't go off simultaneously but shouldn't it be okay (granted not ideal) to bring up the alk then the calcium? I imagine that both will be running a bit low while I'm gone but that it's better then nothing (I plan on putting in enough for 1 day dosing even though it takes one day per bottle). I know my tank can and has survived no dosing for the last year and my coral have definitely gotten hardier in that time. Everything is growing and happy. I'm going to reef-a-palooza, should I give it a try? Or just let my coral continue to deal with low alk and calc per usual?

@Nano sapiens you're the one who inspired me to look into kalk in the first place. But honestly, I'm still just way too nervous about the kalkwasser and getting proportions right and about acciendently forgetting to remove my autotopoff before doing a waterchange. I get anxiety attacks just thinking about it >_<

Ahruk · Oct 5, 2015

Also my magnesium has been falling rapidly is that not normal? (I may also just need to be retesting it, starting today I'm doing all tests twice for precision)

Nano sapiens · Oct 5, 2015

@Nano sapiens

I get anxiety attacks just thinking about it >_<

Sorry, I had to chuckle at that

For the few stony corals and large water changes that you have you'd likely need just a relatively small amount of Kalkwasser mixed in with your RO water. It would be so dilute that even if you allowed a bit too much to get into the tank, it very likely wouldn't hurt anything. I've accidentally let a bit too much of a 50/50% kalk/RO solution empty into my tank and a temporary tissue retraction is all I've ever seen.

Nano sapiens · Oct 5, 2015

Ahruk said:
Also my magnesium has been falling rapidly is that not normal? (I may also just need to be retesting it, starting today I'm doing all tests twice for precision)

Mag tends to drop much slower than Ca and Alk, but I have seen usage vary quite a bit over the years. From your pic I see quite a bit of coralline algae, and if it's growing it is known to use quite a bit.

Ahruk · Oct 6, 2015

yea...I'm actually seeing quite large drops of alk, calc and mag (or at least it seems like it to me)... Not sure how much kalk I'd need to combat this loss. May still need to look into it, if it really is that dilluted I might be comfortable with but I remember I had trouble finding formulas for how much kalk to use. Without dosing, in a day my alk dropped from 8.5-->7.7, calc 460-->390 and mag 1380 -->1200 (very skeptical of this last result was the only one that I didn't double check the first test result-1380- for precision). And yep I'm pretty sure it's the coralline algae and not crazy coral growth that's depleting everything (I have mostly zoas anyway). Still trying to figure out how much to dose of 2 part each day to get it stablized... honestly have no idea how stuff was making it through the week without dosing and then just a 3 gallon water change, alk and calc must have been super low right before a water change.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 6, 2015

I expect the rapid magnesium drop issue relates to testing variation. A drop of more than 1-2 ppm per day is testing error.

Magnesium drops more than 10x more slowly than calcium or about 1 ppm or less per each 2.8 dKH drop in alkalinity.

Adding 1.25% of the water volume in saturated limewater (kalkwasser) adds 1.4 dKH of alkalinity and 10 ppm of calcium. Don't try to use it to boost calcium much as the alk will get too high, and add slowly or the pH will get too high.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 6, 2015

Ahruk said:
They don't go off simultaneously but shouldn't it be okay (granted not ideal) to bring up the alk then the calcium? I imagine that both will be running a bit low while I'm gone but that it's better then nothing (I plan on putting in enough for 1 day dosing even though it takes one day per bottle). I know my tank can and has survived no dosing for the last year and my coral have definitely gotten hardier in that time. Everything is growing and happy. I'm going to reef-a-palooza, should I give it a try? Or just let my coral continue to deal with low alk and calc per usual?

If the bottle holds only 1 days worth of additive, adding one then the other is OK. If you dosed a weeks worth of alkalinity and then the next week only dosed calcium, that is definitely not OK unless the doses are really small.

Ahruk · Oct 6, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
If the bottle holds only 1 days worth of additive, adding one then the other is OK. If you dosed a weeks worth of alkalinity and then the next week only dosed calcium, that is definitely not OK unless the doses are really small.

Awesome, Thanks for all the help! I get a lot of evaporation, wish my water bottles lasted that long xD Thanks for the heads up about the testing error on the mag

From now on everything is getting tested twice to make sure I get approximately the same results.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 6, 2015

You're welcome.

Good luck and Happy Reefing.

Ahruk · Oct 6, 2015

Okay one more quick unrelated question. Can I pull water out of my tank and put it in a tupperware container to be tested later (like on Thursday)? Will this screw up the test results? (would like to get ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, alk, calc and mag tested at local fish store)

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 6, 2015

Ahruk said:
Okay one more quick unrelated question. Can I pull water out of my tank and put it in a tupperware container to be tested later (like on Thursday)? Will this screw up the test results? (would like to get ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, alk, calc and mag tested at local fish store)

Calcium and magnesium are fine. Alkalinity is likely OK.
pH (which you didn't mention) is a definite no.
Ammonia and nitrite is a grey area, since they can be produced and/or consumed in the container by bacterial growth/death and the degradation of organic matter.

Ahruk · Oct 6, 2015

Okay thanks

Yea I figured ph would not be okay. How quickly do you think I would have to get it to the store to have ammonia and nitrite be accurate? (My test kits are expired T_T)
EDIT: just the nitrogen cycle tests not all my tests are expired.