Using ground probes in aquariums

[skim]

Threads like this is why I don't go on ground probe or GFCI threads any more. Have fun
(Master Electrician 40 years. Retired, Thank God)

I love this pic as you can tell his fine and will be fine as the Tank has no ground probe and the tank is not grounded in anyway. This to me show more of what the guys do on the High Power lines from the Helicopters. But I am sure his feet wound be tingling if there was a ground probe in the tank.

 

[Waterjockey]

Or the power bar manufacturer's need to integrate GFCI's into their strips somehow to that only the faulted device is shut off....

Could that work?

You may have a product there!

 

[Brew12]

The consumer devices we buy have UL or CSA certification or the like, do these grounding probes come with a UL or similar "stamp"?

Re the gravity/apple falling example, unfortunately, we don't seem to be able to agree on even what I thought were basic concepts...from my viewpoint, yes, it is much like arguing if the apple would fall from the tree or not.
Take your continuted repeated statement, that seawater is a "very good conductor" of electricity, that to me is like a person repeatedly insisting a solution of 6.9 pH is a "strong" acid. A "very good conductor", is say, copper. 1.68 x 10 -8 p(ohm*meter) at 20 deg C A good insulator, like hard rubber is 1.0 x 10 +13. Seawater is about 2.0 x 10-1. That is pretty close to the neutral point between the two. Notice copper is 8 significant digits to the right, and rubber is 13 significant digits to the left...and seawater is only 1 significant digit to the right? In my book, that is very close to being in the middle between the two, and what I consider a "good conductor" (copper for example) is about 10 million times more conductive than seawater. Will an electrolytic solution like seawater conduct electricity with enough force (potential) applied? Yes, certainly. Is it a "good conductor"? Certainly not.

We seem to stumble into disagreement in virtually every paragraph, and what I fear, is what happens so often when communicating via forums, newsgroups, email, etc, is the tone of text can come across to the reader completely differently than the intent of the author, and it quickly devolves into something unproductive. I'm afraid we are so far apart on just the basics, there is no fruit to bear in continuing on. So on that note, thank you for the discussion, may your corals grow fast and colourful and multiply, and may your fish be fat and healthy, cheers!

It is unfortunate we are so far apart. I agree that salt water cannot be modeled perfectly, yet we do this in electrical engineering all the time. We calculate faults using a concept called symmetrical components. There is no way to have a symmetrical fault, yet we recognize that simplifying the math gets us "close enough". Most electrical faults have an arcing component yet we only mathematically model them when we are specifically studying them. We know what the "typical" resistance of seawater is. You may not consider it an excellent conductor, and that is fine. Someone who works with superconductors probably thinks that copper is a poor conductor of electricity. For the purposes of this conversation, I consider the fact that a 6 ft length with of saltwater can carry over 100 amps at 120V makes it an excellent conductor. Even if there is a 20% error with the calculations it doesn't change what I posted.

I have acknowledged that a ground probe can become a heat source for an electrical fault within a small range of resistances. However, since a ground probe is nothing more than an exposed ground or neutral, that same fault could occur even without a ground probe installed if both the hot and neutral leads become exposed.

I have read plenty of stories of people who don't use ground probes in a salt water aquarium getting shocked. I know many people have had fires due to their aquariums who didn't use ground probes. I have been unable to find a single story of a person who got shocked in a salt water aquarium that did use a ground probe.

I wish you well and I appreciate what you have brought to the discussion even if I do disagree with it. I believe that it takes these types of discussions to move knowledge forward.

 

[Brew12]

Or the power bar manufacturer's need to integrate GFCI's into their strips somehow to that only the faulted device is shut off....

Could that work?

This is the concept I used with my build. I use 4 outlets from my Apex to feed 4 separate GFCI receptacles. I have 2 heaters, my skimmer, and my return pump plugged into them. Would have been much easier if the Apex came that way!
I think the day is coming when every outlet in an aquarium power bar will have it's own GFCI. Right now there is still so much opposition to using GFCI's that I'm not sure how well it would sell.

 

[Brew12]

I love this pic as you can tell his fine and will be fine as the Tank has no ground probe and the tank is not grounded in anyway. This to me show more of what the guys do on the High Power lines from the Helicopters. But I am sure his feet wound be tingling if there was a ground probe in the tank.

It is very similar to working from a helicopter or a bucket truck for lower voltages. Voltage doesn't kill, current does. As long as you aren't a low resistance path to a lower voltage you won't be shocked. Well, except for those guys on working out of the helicopter. They have to wear special corona suits (fine mesh chainmail suits) to keep from getting pin arcing along the imperfections of their skin. Thankfully, I've never done it but the guys who do it all talk about what a rush it is and how much it hurts if their suit slides out of position.

 

[mcarroll]

They have to wear special corona suits (fine mesh chainmail suits) to keep from getting pin arcing along the imperfections of their skin.

Too cool.

 

[mcarroll]

This is the concept I used with my build. I use 4 outlets from my Apex to feed 4 separate GFCI receptacles. I have 2 heaters, my skimmer, and my return pump plugged into them. Would have been much easier if the Apex came that way!
I think the day is coming when every outlet in an aquarium power bar will have it's own GFCI. Right now there is still so much opposition to using GFCI's that I'm not sure how well it would sell.

Just to stir the pot, how could a Arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) fit into the situation? At all?

I know the technology is more modern than GFCI, but don't know what it's really supposed to do...

 

[Waterjockey]

Just to stir the pot, how could a Arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) fit into the situation? At all?

I know the technology is more modern than GFCI, but don't know what it's really supposed to do...

An arc fault is an entirely different kettle of fish Think of a frayed wire where the "hot" lead starts starts to spark across neutral/ground, or in 240V, from one hot leg to the other....imagine this spark becomes a sustained like you would see from an electric welder....that is an arc fault.....the heat developed in the plasma that results is about the same temp as the surface of the sun....the copper or aluminum wires vaporize, and become a metallic cloud that only continues to make the arc more intense. This is the cause of a lot of electrical fires. It can even start in series...ie, one wire broken along it's length, and it starts arcing across the gap. This can happen in milliseconds to seconds. This sustained arc has a unique profile that arc fault protections are designed to detect and clear. They won't stop you from getting electrocuted, but they can help protect against your home catching on fire from failed wiring. They do a different job than what a normal over current breaker does, and a different job again from what a GFCI does.

 

[Waterjockey]

This is the concept I used with my build. I use 4 outlets from my Apex to feed 4 separate GFCI receptacles. I have 2 heaters, my skimmer, and my return pump plugged into them. Would have been much easier if the Apex came that way!
I think the day is coming when every outlet in an aquarium power bar will have it's own GFCI. Right now there is still so much opposition to using GFCI's that I'm not sure how well it would sell.

Great idea with the separate gfci's on each outlet from the apex. They're cheap enough this just makes so much sense. I think I know my project for next weekend

Thanks!

 

[Brew12]

Great idea with the separate gfci's on each outlet from the apex. They're cheap enough this just makes so much sense. I think I know my project for next weekend

Thanks!

This is what it looked like before I plugged my skimmer in. I also use 2 MP40's not on GFCI's since they aren't on the tank. It is the safest possible configuration for myself, my family, and for my fish that I could come up with.

I should add that as a future option I intend to plug indicating lights into the unused receptacles on each GFCI that show outside the tank. That way I know if all 4 lights aren't lit, I have a GFCI tripped.

 

[Waterjockey]

This is what it looked like before I plugged my skimmer in. I also use 2 MP40's not on GFCI's since they aren't on the tank. It is the safest possible configuration for myself, my family, and for my fish that I could come up with.

I should add that as a future option I intend to plug indicating lights into the unused receptacles on each GFCI that show outside the tank. That way I know if all 4 lights aren't lit, I have a GFCI tripped.

Nice and clean pro install with the electroduct I don't have the space to make it nearly as pretty, but at least I can add the functionality and ditch the GFCI that currently feeds the entire system...which I have never been too enthused about, but wouldn't do without.

 

[aquaman30k]

For a $10 accessory it is silly not to use one. I've had several ground probes over the years and not one of them has failed.

 

[coqui1pr]

An arc fault is an entirely different kettle of fish Think of a frayed wire where the "hot" lead starts starts to spark across neutral/ground, or in 240V, from one hot leg to the other....imagine this spark becomes a sustained like you would see from an electric welder....that is an arc fault.....the heat developed in the plasma that results is about the same temp as the surface of the sun....the copper or aluminum wires vaporize, and become a metallic cloud that only continues to make the arc more intense. This is the cause of a lot of electrical fires. It can even start in series...ie, one wire broken along it's length, and it starts arcing across the gap. This can happen in milliseconds to seconds. This sustained arc has a unique profile that arc fault protections are designed to detect and clear. They won't stop you from getting electrocuted, but they can help protect against your home catching on fire from failed wiring. They do a different job than what a normal over current breaker does, and a different job again from what a GFCI does.

In my setup i have a separate circuit for the tank and I installed an AFCI breaker to this dedicated circuit and a GFCI outlet to the tank and it already has saved me from an electric fire because i had a leak and it came into contact with an extension cord which i hadnt lifted from the floor and started arcing and the AFCI breaker shut off the circuit protecting my house.

 

[mcarroll]

Great idea with the separate gfci's on each outlet from the apex. They're cheap enough this just makes so much sense. I think I know my project for next weekend

Thanks!

I've got a box of three GFCI outlets from a project that never happened.....how would you go about wiring them for such a purpose? Pics, @Brew12!!

 

[Cory]

Well the reef is grounded all the time, so theres a good argument.

 

[Cory]

Also there is a gimmick that grounding people daily seems to make the blood cells less sticky and clumped together. After grounding a person for just a few minutes the. Blood cells are separated and unstuck. They show the microscopic images. I ground myself on the earth because it feels good. Why not fish too? Water shouldnt be charging up with voltage. The ocean is grounded all the time from lightening bolts. What would happen to the ocean if it wasn't grounded?

 

[Paul B]

Mcarrol, of course that is not me. If it were me I would be standing in a reef tank. Anyone can do electrical work standing in a goldfish tank

I am also not as chubby as that guy, and look at the hair.

 

[Brew12]

I've got a box of three GFCI outlets from a project that never happened.....how would you go about wiring them for such a purpose? Pics, @Brew12!!

My setup isn't easily photographed because of how it is mounted in the tank but it is very easy to do.

For every pair of outlets you need an "Old Work" style 2 gang electrical box. It needs the plastic tabs that swing out to secure it, not the nail in type for "New Work".
https://www.lowes.com/pd/CARLON-25-cu-in-2-Gang-Plastic-Old-Work-Wall-Electrical-Box/1098507

Break out on of the bottom opening. Cut a hole in plywood (or other solid material) just large enough to slide the box into. Secure it in place by tightening the mounting screws.

For each outlet, I cut the cord off of a cheap power strip.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-6-Outlet-Power-Strip-Built-in-Circuit-Breaker/50211131

Strip back the end of the cord to expose the Black, White, and Green wires. Feed the prepared end of the cord in through the bottom of the electrical box.
Pick up as many 2 plug GFCI receptacles as you need.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hubbell-3-...-Indoor-GFCI-Decorator-Wall-Outlet/1000049969
Wire the cut end of the cord with Black on hot, White on Neutral, and Green on Ground.

Mount the receptacle into the electrical box using the screws on top and bottom.
Put on an outlet cover like this one
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Eaton-2-Gang-White-Double-Decorator-Wall-Plate/1101189

Plug the cord for each outlet pair into your apex.

The supplies to do this are cheap. Maybe I'll pick some stuff up and photograph the process to create a true DIY tutorial later in the week. Have company coming over today.

 

[Paul B]

I love this pic as you can tell his fine and will be fine as the Tank has no ground probe and the tank is not grounded in anyway. This to me show more of what the guys do on the High Power lines from the Helicopters. But I am sure his feet wound be tingling if there was a ground probe in the tank.

Or an electric eel

 

[skim]

Well the one thing I tell/told my friends when they got themselves Aquariums is. Don,t work on the tank in bare feet or even with shocks on, put your running shoes on.