Using Phosguard on a lps/sps tank

mfinn · Nov 10, 2012

Is there a down side to using PhosGuard on a tank with lps corals and encrusting sps and favias?
I have elevated phosphate and would like to use up a bucket of Phosguard I have before I buy anything else.
I plan on using a TLF reactor with this.

phys · Nov 12, 2012

you should be fine, they'll prefer it.. but introduce it slowly. I have heard of corals being shocked by the phophates being taken out too quickly.

NanoNathan · Nov 12, 2012

i use it in my TLF reactor and they love it. The tank is 75% lps zoas rest sps corals

jedimasterben · Nov 12, 2012

I use it in my tank, nothing wrong with it. Great stuff!

shred5 · Nov 12, 2012

Phosguard is aluminium based and should not be used. See article by Randy Holmes Farley
Chemistry And The Aquarium: Aluminum In The Reef Aquarium — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Use a iron based gfo it is better.

jedimasterben · Nov 12, 2012

shred5 said:
Phosguard is aluminium based and should not be used. See article by Randy Holmes Farley
Chemistry And The Aquarium: Aluminum In The Reef Aquarium — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Use a iron based gfo it is better.

If you're really that worried about it, you'd also need to never feed your tank (as foods contain aluminum) or use certain brands of kalkwasser. The article flat-out says that they use a very high amount of phosguard in a very small volume of water, 75mL of Phosguard in 500mL of water. The recommended amount of Phosguard to be used, per Seachem, is 250mL per 75 US gallons (about 283,905mL), which amounts to 1mL of Phosguard for every 1,135mL of water, so the test was performed at 170 times the concentration recommended. If one was to actually use that concentration of Phosguard in their tank, they'd deserve the outcome.

shred5 · Nov 12, 2012

jedimasterben said:
If you're really that worried about it, you'd also need to never feed your tank (as foods contain aluminum) or use certain brands of kalkwasser. The article flat-out says that they use a very high amount of phosguard in a very small volume of water, 75mL of Phosguard in 500mL of water. The recommended amount of Phosguard to be used, per Seachem, is 250mL per 75 US gallons (about 283,905mL), which amounts to 1mL of Phosguard for every 1,135mL of water, so the test was performed at 170 times the concentration recommended. If one was to actually use that concentration of Phosguard in their tank, they'd deserve the outcome.

Well go ahead and use it allot of people over the years have got negative affects from it. You dont see as many people complaining about it because most stopped using it. Its about concentration and build up. Seawater also has aluminum in it and copper and so do foods.

Edit: I am editing this post to add. Saltmix contains aluminum, so does foods, The point is at what point does the scale tip to be much built up. How do we remove it? We know aluminum is bad for corals, but know one knows at what concentration it is bad so we should be looking at reducing aluminum not adding more.

Also Randy did newer test than the article where he ran water through phosguard vs soaking phosguard in water and found much higher concetrations in the water.

NanoNathan · Nov 12, 2012

I agree Phosguard is fine to use, he even said in his test he used very large amounts of phosguard and little water and in larger volumes of water the levels would be different. If you rinse it like they say and use filtration like we all do in our tanks there will be no problem IMHO

jedimasterben · Nov 12, 2012

shred5 said:
Well go ahead and use it allot of people over the years have got negative affects from it. Its about concentration. Seawater also has aluminum in it and copper and so do foods.

What is there that proves the negative effects? The amount of aluminum released from Phosguard using the recommended amounts is negligible (as is the concentration in salt mixes), per the article. At the five week mark, at the recommended concentration (not what was used in the article), I calculate 0.004ppm of aluminum added, with 83% of that being particulate and not dissolved in the water. Over a years time, that amounts to a total of 0.008ppm added to the tank as dissolved aluminum.

People over the years have negative reports about every single product in the hobby.

shred5 · Nov 12, 2012

jedimasterben said:
What is there that proves the negative effects? The amount of aluminum released from Phosguard using the recommended amounts is negligible (as is the concentration in salt mixes), per the article. At the five week mark, at the recommended concentration (not what was used in the article), I calculate 0.004ppm of aluminum added, with 83% of that being particulate and not dissolved in the water. Over a years time, that amounts to a total of 0.008ppm added to the tank as dissolved aluminum.

People over the years have negative reports about every single product in the hobby.

Like I said go ahead and use it. There must have been enough evidence because it used to be the number one used phosphate remover and very few will use it now, most use gfo. I am not going to debate this issue and other metals over the years, this has been debated more than enough. A little search will show plenty of threads.

mfinn · Nov 12, 2012

Wow, alot of discussion on this today.
Thanks everyone.

The main reason I asked the question is because I have a almost full 4L bucket. I've had it for a number of years. It's been opened, but sealed.
Back a couple decades ago I used several products to remove this or that, different types of pads etc. The tank was a all leather coral tank and the biggest thing I remember was that when I used some of the different products, many of the leather corals would go into a funk. More that just the normal leather down time.
So my question was based on my past experience with those type of products.
So I do think I have cause for concern.

shred5 · Nov 13, 2012

mfinn said:
Wow, alot of discussion on this today.
Thanks everyone.

The main reason I asked the question is because I have a almost full 4L bucket. I've had it for a number of years. It's been opened, but sealed.
Back a couple decades ago I used several products to remove this or that, different types of pads etc. The tank was a all leather coral tank and the biggest thing I remember was that when I used some of the different products, many of the leather corals would go into a funk. More that just the normal leather down time.
So my question was based on my past experience with those type of products.
So I do think I have cause for concern.

Leather corals was one of the first things that people noticed had issues with phosguard. It seemed to irritate them. I have a large supply too that is really old that I never used..

bobbyM · Nov 13, 2012

Looks like you do have a cause for concern. If you were to use any, i would start out with the smallest amount that would be feasible to use.
I would also try raising the ALK/Mg values and do more water changes. Remember, if it bonds Po4 it also bonds ALK.

bobbyM · Nov 13, 2012

I've know a few people who have used PhosGuard with out issues. I have known a couple people have major problems using it as well.

A GFO is my personal choice right in front of Lanthanum chloride.

AGAIN, and I can not stress this enough. Watch your ALK values.

Electrobes · Nov 13, 2012

Man I haven't used Phosguard for dang near five years or so. I used it before I knew about the aluminum being bad for softies... on a softie tank! I started with half recommendation and at first glance it didn't do much to the corals, but in about a month's time (When I arrived at the recommended dosage) I did start to see negative effects on the corals. I did quit cold turkey, and eventually switched to GFO. It took about three months before the corals looked normal again.

I'll be honest with you, I haven't used a phosphate remover in a long, long time. But if GFO isn't known to cause issues with any corals, while aluminum based ones have the potential... I would just switch. In this hobby one visit from dear ol' Murphy and it's often times curtains.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 1, 2014

jedimasterben said:
If you're really that worried about it, you'd also need to never feed your tank (as foods contain aluminum) or use certain brands of kalkwasser. The article flat-out says that they use a very high amount of phosguard in a very small volume of water, 75mL of Phosguard in 500mL of water. The recommended amount of Phosguard to be used, per Seachem, is 250mL per 75 US gallons (about 283,905mL), which amounts to 1mL of Phosguard for every 1,135mL of water, so the test was performed at 170 times the concentration recommended. If one was to actually use that concentration of Phosguard in their tank, they'd deserve the outcome.

I know this is a very old thread, but I just wanted to correct some issues here as aluminum has become much more apparent to people as they get the data from Triton tests and many people now see it, when I was the only person to spend the time and effort to detect it years ago.

Yes, the first test used a substantial amount of Phosguard. At Seachem's request at the time (many years ago now) I repeated the test at exactly the recommended dose and got the same result, which is not surprising if what is happening is that aluminum is dissolving until it reaches its solubility limit: the amount of excess solid there doesn't impact the amount that is reached at saturation. I published this new data in an online discussion with Seachem. The owner accepted the results at the time.

Then Seachem tried to prove I was wrong by using their own test. They found nothing, but when I really pressed them, it turned out they used a method that couldn't detect low enough to see what I saw, so obviously the detected none, and still claim that today.

Now with Triton, lots of people are seeing the aluminum and some are making the connection to the aluminum oxide phosphate binders.

jedimasterben · Nov 1, 2014

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
I know this is a very old thread, but I just wanted to correct some issues here as aluminum has become much more apparent to people as they get the data from Triton tests and many people now see it, when I was the only person to spend the time and effort to detect it years ago.

Yes, the first test used a substantial amount of Phosguard. At Seachem's request at the time (many years ago now) I repeated the test at exactly the recommended dose and got the same result, which is not surprising if what is happening is that aluminum is dissolving until it reaches its solubility limit: the amount of excess solid there doesn't impact the amount that is reached at saturation. I published this new data in an online discussion with Seachem. The owner accepted the results at the time.

Then Seachem tried to prove I was wrong by using their own test. They found nothing, but when I really pressed them, it turned out they used a method that couldn't detect low enough to see what I saw, so obviously the detected none, and still claim that today.

Now with Triton, lots of people are seeing the aluminum and some are making the connection to the aluminum oxide phosphate binders.

Thanks for the follow-up, Randy

So it will still leach until saturation? What is the limit?