UV sterilizer

[twilliard]

Totally get what your saying, but in some circumstances QT is not possible. I would need a 6-7 foot tank for QT and have you ever tried to catch fish out of a 400g set up. The stress of the catch far out weighs me managing It instead. Not ideal at all, but unfortunately only option I have at this stage.

On I can imagine what it would be like! Thats why my new store will have 15 20 gallon tanks for qt

 

[robert]

I run 120W of UV on a 400+g system. Not for control of ich or velvet - both of these are more easily eliminated by mechanical filteration, but for the its photolytic capabilties with regard to bacteria and other contaminants. I suspect UV to be much more effective generally than H2O2 in this respect. I'm refering to the degredation of allelopatic chemicals, hydrogen sulphide and other organic compounds.

 

[twilliard]

I run 120W of UV on a 400+g system. Not for control of ich or velvet - both of these are more easily eliminated by mechanical filteration, but for the its photolytic capabilties with regard to bacteria and other contaminants. I suspect UV to be much more effective generally than H2O2 in this respect. I'm refering to the degredation of allelopatic chemicals, hydrogen sulphide and other organic compounds.

So what about phytoplanktons?
Thoughts?

 

[robert]

I'm of the opinion that our tanks are too small to produce sufficient phytoplankton to be of consequence. In this respect we cannot emulate a natural reef environment in any substantial way and it is therefore a mistake to limit your husbandry practices in an attempt to support somthing that you will not be able to sustain anyway - therfore I'm not concerned with the negative effects UV or hard mechanical filteration has on a non-existant phyto population.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'm of the opinion that our tanks are too small to produce sufficient phytoplankton to be of consequence. In this respect we cannot emulate a natural reef environment in any substantial way and it is therefore a mistake to limit your husbandry practices in an attempt to support somthing that you will not be able to sustain anyway - therfore I'm not concerned with the negative effects UV or hard mechanical filteration has on a non-existant phyto population.

Hmm. my tank is pretty alive and having so far some success with nps corals I'd have to disagree. True my live phyto is not as diverse as the sea. But it is spores seeds and bits. My zoo I'm pretty proud of.
Uv in my case would not be a great idea unless it got out of hand. Algal or bacterial. Then perhaps it actually may be good additional filter to consider to balance my Mini Eco system. I don't think I would consider it full time in my current DT. As bacteria is such an important element to tank success and animal health. I think coral and fish eat more bacteria than humans want to think about.



Glad this got bumped.

 

[robert]

Do you externally feed your tank? If you stopped externally feeding would your nps corals be able to sustain themselves with the phyto produced in tank? If so - then I would love to hear and see how your accomplishing it as in the limted volume of a tank - I would have suspected predation to outstrip production in a rather short time.

But again for the typical reef - UV has a substantially beneficial application - although its direct impact may be hard for the hobbyist to discern.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

FWIW, I have sponges growing in my tank that I suspect would not be able to thrive if I killed the bacteria they likely feed on.

 

[robert]

I too have sponges growing in my tank - either I'm not killing 100% of the bacteria (likely) or sponges are not 100% reliant on live bacteria for their diet (likely).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I too have sponges growing in my tank - either I'm not killing 100% of the bacteria (likely) or sponges are not 100% reliant on live bacteria for their diet (likely).

What type?

I didn't have nearly such extensive sponge growth before dosing organic carbon, and not all are the cryptic sponges that many folks get. I also have a yellow ball sponge that has grown to a few inches across.

I cannot prove a UV would have slowed the growth, but I see no reason to try.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I too have sponges growing in my tank - either I'm not killing 100% of the bacteria (likely) or sponges are not 100% reliant on live bacteria for their diet (likely).

Likely you've reached an accidental balance in your system in uv skimming.

Brings me to the question of how do know how much bacteria you have in your system?
And do we know yet how much is too much.
And what kind is bad.

 

[robert]

I get pineaple sponges - primarily in my sump. I have a purple sponge on the base of a brain which grows in thick filaments - fast growing - orange sponge on some elegance and eiphilia bases - slow growing - as well as thick grey chunky sponge under some rock - moderatly slow growing.

The purple sponge is a nuisance - likely imported with the coral and I intend to scrape it out shortly as I've seen it berfore and it is not compatible in close proximity to corals. The others are fine IME.

 

[robert]

Likely you've reached an accidental balance in your system in uv skimming.

Brings me to the question of how do know how much bacteria you have in your system?
And do we know yet how much is too much.
And what kind is bad.

All very good questions - what we do know is that at least some of the bacteria commonly resident in corals are pathogenic to the corals themselves. Externally culturing two of the more common resident bacteria and reintroducing them to the water column in numbers only 2X those typical in the overlying reef water resulted in a extensive and significant number of coral mortalities through RTN and bleaching - experimental data.

The presence of bacteria in corals is universal - but little is known of any "symbiotic" relationship. Neither is much known of the nutritional importance of bacteria in the coral diet. You have bacteria in your gut and skin - it does not mean you need it as part of a necessary symbiotic relationship or that it is a substantial food source.

So how much phyto grows in your system? What types - many elements of phyto are parasitic - how do you control these? What percentage of the nutritional needs of your corals is satisfied by the phyto in your water and how much from external food sources such as fish wastes and excess POC?

I've used the methylene blue method of determining bacterial load by measuring the time required to consume O2 in a water sample - it tells me only relative amonts of bacteria in the water - not absolute amounts - but it was sufficient to indicate that UV and filteration resulted in a very significant time increase for the blue to disappear from the test vials - many days as opposed to hours. Not too scientific I'm afraid.

 

[FarmerTy]

I too have sponges growing in my tank - either I'm not killing 100% of the bacteria (likely) or sponges are not 100% reliant on live bacteria for their diet (likely).

I've observed the same in my tank. I run a 57-watt AquaUV sterilizer and I still get plenty of sponge growth. I do use biopellets but the effluent of the biopellet reactor is directly plumbed to the skimmer.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

All very good questions - what we do know is that at least some of the bacteria commonly resident in corals are pathogenic to the corals themselves. Externally culturing two of the more common resident bacteria and reintroducing them to the water column in numbers only 2X those typical in the overlying reef water resulted in a extensive and significant number of coral mortalities through RTN and bleaching - experimental data.

The presence of bacteria in corals is universal - but little is known of any "symbiotic" relationship. Neither is much known of the nutritional importance of bacteria in the coral diet. You have bacteria in your gut and skin - it does not mean you need it as part of a necessary symbiotic relationship or that it is a substantial food source.

So how much phyto grows in your system? What types - many elements of phyto are parasitic - how do you control these? What percentage of the nutritional needs of your corals is satisfied by the phyto in your water and how much from external food sources such as fish wastes and excess POC?

I've used the methylene blue method of determining bacterial load by measuring the time required to consume O2 in a water sample - it tells me only relative amonts of bacteria in the water - not absolute amounts - but it was sufficient to indicate that UV and filteration resulted in a very significant time increase for the blue to disappear from the test vials - many days as opposed to hours. Not too scientific I'm afraid.

Do you externally feed your tank? = Yes. of course, Food diversity

If you stopped externally feeding would your nps corals be able to sustain themselves with the phyto produced in tank? That would be an interesting experiment. = Not gonna happen in this tank.

If so - then I would love to hear and see how your accomplishing it as in the limted volume of a tank - I would have suspected predation to outstrip production in a rather short time. =Absolutely

The presence of bacteria in corals is universal - but little is known of any "symbiotic" relationship. = Studies are being done, we do know jellyfish populations specifically blooms are being attributed to high bacterial loads.
Neither is much known of the nutritional importance of bacteria in the coral diet. = yup

You have bacteria in your gut and skin - it does not mean you need it as part of a necessary symbiotic relationship or that it is a substantial food source. = soo much is being researched in this field. Particularly in the field of allergy(farm theory, and obesity in america). So I do disagree there. People in other counties eat food we cant, bacteria is and has been commonly blamed. In Amerika, anti bacteria sells. Italians are not fat. And we sell Pro biotic everything, but its canned rather than natural. German beer cant be sold here, too much live bacteria. And knew what lambic beer was, they would never drink it.

I've used the methylene blue method of determining bacterial load by measuring the time required to consume O2 in a water sample - it tells me only relative amonts of bacteria in the water - not absolute amounts - but it was sufficient to indicate that UV and filteration resulted in a very significant time increase for the blue to disappear from the test vials - many days as opposed to hours. Not too scientific I'm afraid. = genius probably and the only answer found so far.

I've observed the same in my tank. I run a 57-watt AquaUV sterilizer and I still get plenty of sponge growth. I do use biopellets but the effluent of the biopellet reactor is directly plumbed to the skimmer. = addition and subtraction? balance?

A summary of my questions and my interest in the thread is, as bacteria is a natural part of the ecosystem how do we find and measure in a quantitative way (like out water params and dosing methods), bacterial elements in aquaria and not be influenced by fad and popular fear. I do understand its an enclosed system and caution need to be observed as husbandry would state.
Life on the planet started with bacteria, we are looking for it on mars and comets. so there is definitely a mis understood link there.
I enjoy mostly the diversity of life in my tank rather than the trophy hunt aspect of a $$$$Zoa. When my sponges began to fail, and my jellyfish passed, and seeing Uber sterile but established tanks become unbalanced and crashed, I had to assume a bacterial connection.
Mature higher nutrient and possibly higher bacterial tanks seem more sucessful and I am looking for methods from more experienced aquarists to achieve that.
Thanks for the insights,and so much food for thought. Any links of interst appreciated.

Miazaki is a genius and a true artist btw.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'm of the opinion that our tanks are too small to produce sufficient phytoplankton to be of consequence. In this respect we cannot emulate a natural reef environment in any substantial way and it is therefore a mistake to limit your husbandry practices in an attempt to support somthing that you will not be able to sustain anyway - therfore I'm not concerned with the negative effects UV or hard mechanical filteration has on a non-existant phyto population.

Ron Shimeks links arent working but..

• Feeding Begets Food, 1 or… Food Production By Design, How A Deep Sand Bed Can Produce Food For Reef Inhabitants.
  • http://www.dtplankton.com/articles/sandbeds.html

• Feeding Begets Food, 2 or… Food Production By Design, Using A Refugium To Produce Food For Reef Inhabitants.
  • http://www.dtplankton.com/articles/refugiums.html

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

FWIW, I have sponges growing in my tank that I suspect would not be able to thrive if I killed the bacteria they likely feed on.

Do you have any links to info or books on this?

 

[RMS18]

I installed one not to long ago, AquaUV. First thing i noticed was how clear the water became, i run carbon also but the clarity of the water is on a whole new level. Does it kill pathogens i cant tell you, they say UV does but who can really tell. It was worth the price along just for how clear the water has become, even when i do weekly water changes.

 

[twilliard]

I've used the methylene blue method of determining bacterial load by measuring the time required to consume O2 in a water sample - it tells me only relative amonts of bacteria in the water - not absolute amounts - but it was sufficient to indicate that UV and filteration resulted in a very significant time increase for the blue to disappear from the test vials - many days as opposed to hours. Not too scientific I'm afraid

I do this same thing but use ph reagent. I track the time to turn yellow (Elos)

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I do this same thing but use ph reagent. I track the time to turn yellow (Elos)

I wish you lived closer.

Googling now.

 

[twilliard]

I wish you lived closer.

Googling now.

Sometimes I feel I live in the middle of nowhere!
Not many reefers around here