Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)

Gsxrfl1k6 · Apr 9, 2018

melypr1985 said:
That is most likely lympho. Some of the symptoms you mentioned do sound like velvet.... especially the swimming into the flow over and over again. There are some strains of velvet that don't show outward symptoms until it's much too late. You have to pay close attention to the behavioral symptoms and make a judgement call.

Do you think there's any chance it could be gill flukes? I was thinking of dosing prazi just because it's easy and see if it makes a difference.

melypr1985 · Apr 9, 2018

Gsxrfl1k6 said:
Do you think there's any chance it could be gill flukes? I was thinking of dosing prazi just because it's easy and see if it makes a difference.

It's a very very small possibility since the FW dip showed nothing. I wouldn't bother with it and instead focus on the more pressing problem.

Gsxrfl1k6 · Apr 9, 2018

melypr1985 said:
It's a very very small possibility since the FW dip showed nothing. I wouldn't bother with it and instead focus on the more pressing problem.

I'm not sure the more pressing problem is velvet is the problem, lol. I thought I remember reading that fw dip doesn't dislodge gill flukes.

Back to the velvet question. Wouldn't my fish have already started dying and more than one or 2 be affected?

melypr1985 · Apr 9, 2018

Gsxrfl1k6 said:
I thought I remember reading that fw dip doesn't dislodge gill flukes.

That's incorrect. The freshwater dip's main purpose is to show you gill flukes. The secondary benefit to it is that it can flush out excess mucus build up in the gills and allow some relief from parasites like ich and velvet.

Gsxrfl1k6 said:
Wouldn't my fish have already started dying and more than one or 2 be affected?

Maybe not. It would depend on the strain, the starting health of the fish, individual immune systems ect. There are too many variables to count and not every velvet outbreak is a fast killer.... most of them are, but some are slow to advance to the stage where everybody starts dying.

Gsxrfl1k6 · Apr 11, 2018

Humblefish said:
I've never seen a fish with flukes swim into the flow of a powerhead. That is a velvet only symptom, as well as staying out of the light.

Fish with flukes will twitch their head, yawn and scratch targeting the gill area. The yawning thing seems to be unique to flukes IME.

So this info has lead to my exact dilemma. I have a tank full of fish and only one of them, the hippo, has really been acting kind of strange. It will swim in the flow of the gyres, not close but maybe 10 inches away. It will do this for a few seconds and then swim around for a while in the tank and come back to the again. I automatically thought velvet. But this has been going on for a week or so now. No visible physical symptoms and everyone is eating normally. I have seen some yawning in a few of the fish and scratch a few times near the gill area. So it sounds like gill flukes with the "flow swimming" velvet indicator. But there have been no deaths, no change in eating, respiration rate seems like it could be slightly elevated, but not crazy (in the hippo), no spots or other physical symptoms. Is it safe to rule out velvet?

I just don't want to rip my tank apart prematurely if it's an easier fix such as prazi. I've been monitoring closely for changes and this has remained the state of affairs.

tastyfish · Apr 11, 2018

melypr1985 said:
That's incorrect. The freshwater dip's main purpose is to show you gill flukes. The secondary benefit to it is that it can flush out excess mucus build up in the gills and allow some relief from parasites like ich and velvet.

Maybe not. It would depend on the strain, the starting health of the fish, individual immune systems ect. There are too many variables to count and not every velvet outbreak is a fast killer.... most of them are, but some are slow to advance to the stage where everybody starts dying.

I've had two outbreaks of velvet. Once in the display and once in QT.

The first was difficult to diagnose at first and period from first signs to first fatality was over 7 days. The second, which luckily was in the QT occurred rapidly. With first physical signs to mortality (a melanurus wrasse) being 48 hours.

The behaviour of moving to flow is likely to be to increase respiration or clear gill irritation. Sadly, this could be any of a number of pathogens/parasites affecting the gills.

Do you have actinics or blue LED's which you can run? Velvet shows up fairly reliably as an almost flourescent/golden sheen on the dorsal area under this light. Along with mucus thickening in my experience

Gsxrfl1k6 · Apr 11, 2018

tastyfish said:
I've had two outbreaks of velvet. Once in the display and once in QT.

The first was difficult to diagnose at first and period from first signs to first fatality was over 7 days. The second, which luckily was in the QT occurred rapidly. With first physical signs to mortality (a melanurus wrasse) being 48 hours.

The behaviour of moving to flow is likely to be to increase respiration or clear gill irritation. Sadly, this could be any of a number of pathogens/parasites affecting the gills.

Do you have actinics or blue LED's which you can run? Velvet shows up fairly reliably as an almost flourescent/golden sheen on the dorsal area under this light. Along with mucus thickening in my experience

Yup, I have ai hydras that run blue later in the day. I've examined the fish closely under varying lighting conditions and cant for the life of me spot anything out of the ordinary.

Humblefish · Apr 11, 2018

@Gsxrfl1k6 Can you catch the Hippo and give him a 5 min FW dip? To confirm or rule out flukes?

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

Gsxrfl1k6 · Apr 11, 2018

Humblefish said:
@Gsxrfl1k6 Can you catch the Hippo and give him a 5 min FW dip? To confirm or rule out flukes?

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

It's not going to be easy, but that does seem to make the most sense so I'll try to do it hopefully without destroying my tank.

If the flukes are in the gills will fw dip dislodge them? Are there flukes that infect just the gills?

Humblefish · Apr 11, 2018

Gsxrfl1k6 said:
If the flukes are in the gills will fw dip dislodge them? Are there flukes that infect just the gills?

Yes & yes; you won’t see as many white sesame seed looking things as you will with skin flukes, but some will drop out of the gills. They will also be smaller.

Gsxrfl1k6 · Apr 11, 2018

Humblefish said:
Yes & yes; you won’t see as many white sesame seed looking things as you will with skin flukes, but some will drop out of the gills. They will also be smaller.

Well, got the hippo out and fw dipped it for 5 minutes. There were not any flukes that I could see. So, I guess that's it then? A slow going strain of velvet? I do have a 40 watt uv running, maybe that's slowing it down.

Humblefish · Apr 11, 2018

Gsxrfl1k6 said:
I do have a 40 watt uv running, maybe that's slowing it down.

Very possible. How big is your DT? A 40 watt UV can filter out free swimmers at a rate of 967gph. That will manage/control symptoms of velvet for awhile. But if that UV ever goes offline, expect disaster to strike.

Gsxrfl1k6 · Apr 12, 2018

I have a reefer 750, which is billed as a 160.
Rather than take the chance, I've already pulled them and started copper power. Thanks for all the insight everyone.

tastyfish · Apr 18, 2018

A great read, Humblefish. Thanks for taking the time to write that up. Given the choice of Acriflavine or Formalin for most fish, which would you chose as a relief dip?

Humblefish · Apr 18, 2018

tastyfish said:
A great read, Humblefish. Thanks for taking the time to write that up. Given the choice of Acriflavine or Formalin for most fish, which would you chose as a relief dip?

I prefer this 1-2-3 punch for treating Marine Velvet Disease:

5 min FW dip, which forces 80-90% of the parasites off of the fish
90 min acriflavine/Rally* bath to ward off a secondary infection
And then into QT for 30 day copper or CP treatment

* I prefer to use Ruby Reef Rally because it contains two antiseptics (acriflavine, aminoacridine) PLUS a small amount of formalin.

tastyfish · Apr 18, 2018

Humblefish said:
I prefer this 1-2-3 punch for treating Marine Velvet Disease:

5 min FW dip, which forces 80-90% of the parasites off of the fish

90 min acriflavine/Rally* bath to ward off a secondary infection

And then into QT for 30 day copper or CP treatment

* I prefer to use Ruby Reef Rally because it contains two antiseptics (acriflavine, aminoacridine) PLUS a small amount of formalin.

Thanks Humblefish. We can't get Rally here in the UK, but we have Myzaxin which sounds similar: Malachite Green, Acriflavine Hydrochloride and a little formaldehyde as a stabiliser.

I think by the time we have seen the fish with verifiable symptoms, the outcome of copper or chloroquine treatment is worsened. Therefore I'm planning to dip/bath all symptomatic or asymptomatic fish prior to treatment.

Previously I had decided not to do so, as I thought the fish would not take the extra stress, however it's clear the outcome isn't better without.

Kevinkmk · Apr 24, 2018

I have 4 marine velvet infected fishes in a 20 gallon with under therapeutic level of copper. Later I will transfer all 4 fishes into a 10 gallon therapeutic copper tank. Can I still use the filter media and water in the old 20 gallon tank for new fishes? Or I have to clean and recycle the 20 gallon.

HotRocks · Apr 24, 2018

Kevinkmk said:
I have 4 marine velvet infected fishes in a 20 gallon with under therapeutic level of copper. Later I will transfer all 4 fishes into a 10 gallon therapeutic copper tank. Can I still use the filter media and water in the old 20 gallon tank for new fishes? Or I have to clean and recycle the 20 gallon.

Its fine to move the water and media over with the fish to the 10g. (4 fish in a 10g I would be careful and stay aware of ammonia)

You will definitely want to sterilize the 20g tank (Bleach it, and rinse very thoroughly, like 2 or 3 times) . I will also let it dry for a couple days. It is the only way to be sure its "Clean".

PDR · Jun 4, 2018

This may have been covered but I'll admit I didn't feel like reading all 14 pages lol.

I was in my LFS today and got to thinking, how is it that velvet does not destroy almost every LFS and fish holding facility? I know the turnover rate of fish is pretty high but you would think that with as many fish come in to most LFS on a weekly basis, one of them is bound to have velvet at some point. So with hundreds of fish, sometimes all plumbed together and some staying in the store for a few weeks at a time, how is this not more of an issue for them?

4FordFamily · Jun 4, 2018

PDR said:
This may have been covered but I'll admit I didn't feel like reading all 14 pages lol.

I was in my LFS today and got to thinking, how is it that velvet does not destroy almost every LFS and fish holding facility? I know the turnover rate of fish is pretty high but you would think that with as many fish come in to most LFS on a weekly basis, one of them is bound to have velvet at some point. So with hundreds of fish, sometimes all plumbed together and some staying in the store for a few weeks at a time, how is this not more of an issue for them?

It’s a huge issue for them and why pretty much every fish I’ve ever gotten has had ich or velvet. Some fight off ich. Velvet has taken over because of what you describe.

In truth, most LFS keep fish in low levels of copper to keep it from taking over until it goes to its new home (keeps it contained from taking over). Add to that the short amount of time most fish remain in inventory and you have your answer.