Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)

[jsbull]

Velvet sometimes affects fish without outward spots or symptoms. The other reality is that by the time you see it on the fish, it is often too late.

It may well be ammonia that is killing your fish. If that tank was not fully cycled, daily large water changes will be needed to keep ammonia down or that will end them. Has anyone been doing water changes and replacement medicine dosing?

The tank was not even running 24 hours yet at the point they died, so it couldn't have been ammonia poisoning. Also, this is a 40 gallon tank, so there is sufficient water volume to make it a few days.

I've read @Humblefish say not to water change for 30 days. How can you treat copper, not water change, and control ammonia at the same time?

 

[Humblefish]

I've read @Humblefish say not to water change for 30 days. How can you treat copper, not water change, and control ammonia at the same time?

Best option is to use a filter on the QT which utilizes bio-media capable of housing nitrifying bacteria. This explains in more detail under "Ammonia control": https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/

However, being copper is already in your QT you would need to seed a bio-filter in a bucket or something before placing in the QT. Copper would kill most of the bacteria found in one of those "bacteria in a bottle" products as soon as it hit the water, but it has a harder time doing so once this same bacteria has entrenched itself inside a bio-filter. The "surface bacteria" still gets killed off, but what's inside the filter is mostly safe.

Without a working bi0-filter your only option is to do WCs to control ammonia. However, you must add copper to any replacement water (but not top-off) before pumping it into the QT. The Cu level must never drop below therapeutic at any time during the 30 day treatment period.

 

[Humblefish]

@jsbull What water did your LFS use to setup the QT? They didn't use an ammonia reducer (like Prime) on the QT before adding copper, did they? The resulting chemical interaction turns copper toxic. Also, how fast did they ramp the Cu level up in your QT? All that is required is the minimum therapeutic level when the fish first go in, and most fish can tolerate that just fine. Not trying to pin this on your LFS, but just wondering if some mistakes were made when setting up the QT.

 

[jsbull]

@jsbull What water did your LFS use to setup the QT? They didn't use an ammonia reducer (like Prime) on the QT before adding copper, did they? The resulting chemical interaction turns copper toxic. Also, how fast did they ramp the Cu level up in your QT? All that is required is the minimum therapeutic level when the fish first go in, and most fish can tolerate that just fine. Not trying to pin this on your LFS, but just wondering if some mistakes were made when setting up the QT.

They used RODI and Tropic Marin salt. They took it to Cupramine minimum recommended level, as you suggest in your post.

I do have some seeded Marinepure Ceramic media, but thought copper would just kill it anyway. I can have my wife put that in.

I also ordered an ammonia wheel as you suggested elsewhere.

Is is true that copper presence keeps velvet from spreading, since it kills the free swimmers?

 

[Humblefish]

Is is true that copper presence keeps velvet from spreading, since it kills the free swimmers?

Copper eradicates the free swimmers and the free swimmers only. So, it only prevents reinfection/parasites from spreading. Copper does not help eliminate whatever parasites are already on the fish, eating away at them. With ich this isn't as big of an issue because most healthy fish can withstand ich. However, due to velvet's sheer overwhelming numbers immediate relief is usually required (prior to copper) to save the life of the fish. This is what the FW dip & chemical bath does. Neither are potent enough to eliminate all of the trophonts, but it usually knocks their numbers down enough so a fish has at least a fighting chance of being able to "weather the storm" until the rest drop off of their own accord.

 

[jsbull]

Copper eradicates the free swimmers and the free swimmers only. So, it only prevents reinfection/parasites from spreading. Copper does not help eliminate whatever parasites are already on the fish, eating away at them. With ich this isn't as big of an issue because most healthy fish can withstand ich. However, due to velvet's sheer overwhelming numbers immediate relief is usually required (prior to copper) to save the life of the fish. This is what the FW dip & chemical bath does. Neither are potent enough to eliminate all of the trophonts, but it usually knocks their numbers down enough so a fish has at least a fighting chance of being able to "weather the storm" until the rest drop off of their own accord.

Right, but in the case a healthy fish is added to a therapeutic level copper treated tank that contains a sick fish, the healthy fish should not be infected.

Is this correct?

 

[Humblefish]

Right, but in the case a healthy fish is added to a therapeutic level copper treated tank that contains a sick fish, the healthy fish should not be infected.

Is this correct?

Yes, but only from the two diseases which copper treats: ich & velvet. Brook, uronema, flukes/worms, bacterial infections, etc. all require a treatment other than copper.

 

[Humblefish]

All these threads about velvet lately has reminded me that I have a new patient to show off. Meet Sally Sailfin. When I first saw her I thought she just had ich. But after a 5 hr drive home and I got a better look at her in my QT, it became evident she had velvet. So I'm running her thru my Velvet QT protocol (outlined at the beginning of this thread) and she is doing quite well. More pics to follow.

Update on Sally Sailfin (original post above). She came to me with velvet and a slight bacterial infection. Following my 10 day treatment program (5 min FW dip + 75 min acriflavine bath + 10 days in a QT with CP @ 40mg/gal), she was transferred to a non-medicated observation tank for strengthening & conditioning. Here she is, one month later - isn't she beautiful!

 

[seastar]

Update on Sally Sailfin (original post above). She came to me with velvet and a slight bacterial infection. Following my 10 day treatment program (5 min FW dip + 75 min acriflavine bath + 10 days in a QT with CP @ 40mg/gal), she was transferred to a non-medicated observation tank for strengthening & conditioning. Here she is, one month later - isn't she beautiful!

Excellent! All 5 of mine that you helped me save are also alive!!! Question: My yellow tang is showing signs of a bacterial infection (had to have someone fish sit for 1.5 weeks and I think they didnt do enough (any?) water changes. Did you treat that after the Velvet or at the same time?

 

[Humblefish]

Excellent! All 5 of mine that you helped me save are also alive!!! Question: My yellow tang is showing signs of a bacterial infection (had to have someone fish sit for 1.5 weeks and I think they didnt do enough (any?) water changes. Did you treat that after the Velvet or at the same time?

I've treated for it at the same time - using Kanaplex and/or Furan-2. However, due to how slow acting antibiotics work on fish, sometimes treatment needs to continue longer than treatment for parasites. Increase gas exchange whenever using antibiotics by using an airstone or pointing a powerhead towards the surface of the water.

 

[melypr1985]

Update on Sally Sailfin (original post above). She came to me with velvet and a slight bacterial infection. Following my 10 day treatment program (5 min FW dip + 75 min acriflavine bath + 10 days in a QT with CP @ 40mg/gal), she was transferred to a non-medicated observation tank for strengthening & conditioning. Here she is, one month later - isn't she beautiful!

She looks great!

 

[Bori]

Awesome info as always!

 

[lewis.maryann08]

I guess velvet is what I had a couple weeks ago it killed out all my fish all but my goby and my shrimp I did use the Ruby reef rally but it didn't help I guess my fish were to sick why didn't my goby get it ?
Here is some pictures of mine I lost..

 

[Humblefish]

@lewis.maryann08 That looks more like Brooklynella to me (very similar to velvet). Look at these pics of clownfish with brook: https://www.google.com/search?q=bro...ved=0ahUKEwjI_YDhy9nLAhXswYMKHdz5BC4Q_AUIBigB

 

[lewis.maryann08]

I lost ever fish all but my goby and shrimp how do I get rid of it and how long before I can get more fish?

 

[Humblefish]

I lost ever fish all but my goby and shrimp how do I get rid of it and how long before I can get more fish?

Your DT itself needs to be left fallow (fishless) for 6 weeks to starve out brook or 76 days if you wanna be REALLY SURE (to eliminate the possibility of ich).

The goby can be treated for brook using several methods (see below), and I think I'd also run him thru 30 days of copper just to be on the safe side.

Brooklynella:

Symptoms – This is most often seen in clownfish, but it can afflict any fish. The fish’s skin will appear to be peeling or sloughing off, oftentimes causing excessive white mucous to form around the affected area(s).

Treatment options - Formalin bath, followed by additional formalin baths (as needed - but give the fish a day to recuperate in-between baths). You can use formalin in a QT (at a much lower concentration than the bath), but great care must be taken to provide plenty of gas exchange as formalin will quickly deplete the water of oxygen. For this reason, doing baths is the safer option as the fish can be pulled from the formalin if showing signs of distress. Formalin-MS is preferred, as that contains 37% formaldehyde. However, in a bind, any medication containing formalin (ex. Quick Cure) is better than nothing. Alternative treatments for brook include metronidazole (ex. Seachem MetroPlex) and acriflavine (ex. Acriflavine-MS). A freshwater dip may provide temporary relief if you are unable to locate any of the aforementioned medications right away.

 

[lewis.maryann08]

Thank you I will order some what kind of the copper do you use? I have never done this

 

[Humblefish]

Thank you I will order some what kind of the copper do you use? I have never done this

I recommend using a chelated copper such as Coppersafe or Copper Power. Also pickup an API copper test kit to measure it with.

 

[Humblefish]

This article contains more detailed info on velvet's known lifecycle: http://www.ultimatereef.com/articles/marinevelvet/

I also inserted it into my first post.

 

[Jrhunter0000]

So are coral safe from velvet?