Velvet i

[jaihutcherson]

Yes for organic carbon not inert carbon like in reactors. Example got cheap one day dosed a bottle of tonic water in experiment not realizing it had high fructose corn syrup in it (carbon source). 1 day later snot for 3 weeks straight. (dont ask haha) It does kind of look like fungus to me though. Kind of stringy and has a mycelium look to it. Can't be sure without a microscope.

What do I look for in microscope? I bought nice one but still learning what I’m looking at

 

[jaihutcherson]

I don't know that I can add much, but it's kinda the chicken or the egg thing. Is it possible that maybe feeding too much or more than usual, caused a mini cycle for the tank that it wasn't prepared to deal with, this stressed the fish, and caused disease that was already in the tank to become toxic. Did the disease or the water conditions kill them? Probably no way to know. I've seen things like this happen (I went through it) watched 16 fish die 2-3 at a time over a 3 week period. I discovered my heater had been leaking electricity into the display. Several fish showed signs of massive parasite outbreaks, ich, others just died for no reason, labored breathing. etc. I took very few of the fish out and had very little to no ammonia or nitrite in my 350. The reason I say that confidently is because I had corals growing faster and looking nicer than ever as the fish decayed. My algae turf scrubber was producing algae like there was no tomorrow. I don't know if it's helpful but before I put new fish back in I'd rule out stray voltage from heaters, pumps, circulation pumps, etc. . . Just some thoughts.

I really am sorry, it is heart wrenching and so painful to watch. I left my tank alone for 4 months with 1 fish in it after that. That was 2.5 years ago. If it wasn't an in wall tank, I may have just scrapped the hobby alltogether after seeing that. But, back up to 26 fish now, after 2.5 years of rebuilding the reef. And things are doing great! So, all I can offer is to hang in there. This may not be anything you or your vacation watcher could have prevented. You're doing great assessing everything and evaluating all the possibilities.

Thanks for the inspiration! I’m very familiar with stray voltage. That was last year about this time in my 150 reef. Lol- not funny. But I will check. Today has tested my resolve to be in the hobby. As I scrubb tank after tank - what I came up from… thinking this is cash In my hand. Lol right. I’m learning as I go as well all have. This too shall pass and with it understanding will come.
jai

 

[DrZoidburg]

Look at image searches for mycelium cell vs bacteria cell. Very distinct differences. Mycelium tends to form branches, bacteria has moving parts.

 

[jaihutcherson]

Look at image searches for mycelium cell vs bacteria cell. Very distinct differences. Mycelium tends to form branches, bacteria has moving parts.

Right on. Thank you. That’s the kind of info I need …. How or what to research. Not lazy just need a starting point.
Thanks
Jai

 

[jaihutcherson]

Hey all,

just a quick update….

doing a FW DIP on all fish and eels now. After dip I’m moving all fish to a 150g. I’ve been setting up today. Spent the day getting salinity right, temp, etc. so I can simply nuke the 230g they are coming from with bleach and start getting it ready. The eels, 2 of them, will go to their own tank (75g for about 3 days until the 400g is ready and plumbed in place. My plan is to start copper tonight on the fish tank. I don’t know about the eels. Really need a difinitive answer on treating them in the 75g with copper or just observe??? As I understand, not really, eels can get ich but usually do not becausenn be of the thick slime coat. I also think I understand that they can be carriers only. Soooooo, does that mean the ich would not die if it transfers to the 75 through natural life cycle and no one to infect or ?????

I would really appreciate some expert input on this so I don’t make a wrong move in the middle of all this. The 75 has been set up with pvc as well as about 50lbs of live rock. If I am going to treat copper in that tank I’d like to move the rock back out before I do so.
As always, thanks for any help and even the encouragement y’all rock!
Jai

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hey all,

just a quick update….

doing a FW DIP on all fish and eels now. After dip I’m moving all fish to a 150g. I’ve been setting up today. Spent the day getting salinity right, temp, etc. so I can simply nuke the 230g they are coming from with bleach and start getting it ready. The eels, 2 of them, will go to their own tank (75g for about 3 days until the 400g is ready and plumbed in place. My plan is to start copper tonight on the fish tank. I don’t know about the eels. Really need a difinitive answer on treating them in the 75g with copper or just observe??? As I understand, not really, eels can get ich but usually do not becausenn be of the thick slime coat. I also think I understand that they can be carriers only. Soooooo, does that mean the ich would not die if it transfers to the 75 through natural life cycle and no one to infect or ?????

I would really appreciate some expert input on this so I don’t make a wrong move in the middle of all this. The 75 has been set up with pvc as well as about 50lbs of live rock. If I am going to treat copper in that tank I’d like to move the rock back out before I do so.
As always, thanks for any help and even the encouragement y’all rock!
Jai

Eels CAN get Amyloodinium though (velvet), so if you have a mixed infection, they are at risk. If you use coppersafe, the lions and eels will survive that UNLESS they are too compromised by the illness. As I mentioned, the timing here is not on your side. If the disease is advanced to a certain point, more fish may die before the copper has a chance to work.

You need a good copper test kit (Hanna checker is best, avoid the API kit). Then calculate the copper dose (check your math!). Then add half the calculated dose, let the tank circulate for a few hours, test the water and add the remaining coppersafe to get you up to 2.0 ppm - so full dose in 12 hours.

Good Luck!

Jay

 

[DrZoidburg]

Some fish can get resistance to ich, but would still carry it. I advocate at least doing something. At least would be a chance not a total loss. You said you had ordered CP. I would just hold off on the eels until that med gets there, and not use copper. Also if you move display tank rock out you either have to treat it, or let it sit fishless in a container with flow.

 

[jaihutcherson]

@DrZoidburg @Jay Hemdal

thanks to both for all the valuable info. I’ve moved the eels to a fully cycled 75 with pvc and plenty of rock; same ph, salinity, and heat as original tank. Waiting on CP to arrive if needed. The three of them look healthy as can be with zero signs of any infection.

ive moved the rest of the fish to a 150g not cycled but turbo start to get it going. It was dosed with a half dose of coppersafe. Bare bottom, no rock, lots of pvc. This after a FW dip on all. That was Ian ordeal. Lol all look good except clown trigger and lionfish. Lionfish doesn’t look so bad I’m worrying about losing him but the transfer and FW dip took a lot out of him. The clown, I think it’s just a matter of time. Tonight about 8pm I’ll dose the rest of the copper.

I do have a 20 long that I got up and running this morning. Canister filter, heat, wave makers, and pvc. That is currently dosed at half recommended dose and will remain their. I have done this in case I need to pull puffers or lion out of 150g when I go full dose tonight. One of the puffers eyes are getting out insicating a secondary infection, guessing bacteria. Can I treat that in tank now too or would that just be too much on everyone?

again, thanks for the valuable information. I could not have gotten even to this point without y’all. I’ve been a hardware guy for so long but really never cared to have fish myself. Once my wife convinced me I wouldn’t turn back but dang is this an unexpected learning curve. Lol so much easier sealing tanks and creating filtration for people.

jai

 

[DrZoidburg]

Just curious how are things going?

 

[jaihutcherson]

Hey!
Thanks for asking. The eels are normal as always. They do not appear Hurtbor sick. I lost the lionfish 2 days ago but the others are really good. No signs of sickness, eating like crazy and absolutely no spots what so ever. I’ve maintained my copper at 1.88 according to my Hanna checker. I feared going too much higher with the puffers. Doing daily 40 gallon water changes but can mot seem to get cloudiness gone; bare bottom 150, pvc pipe and fittings only, was a completely new build I was about to transfer my eels out to before this. Feeding light; almost hand feeding the fish so not much waste. Other than that good. Can I run general cure now with the copper or do I need to wait. I honestly do not know if it was velvet/ich. I know upon transfer out and me cleaning the 230 they came from it was a bacteria factory. tick poor job of cleaning that tank right I know that.
Jai

 

[DrZoidburg]

Can I run general cure now with the copper or do I need to wait. I honestly do not know if it was velvet/ich. I know upon transfer out and me cleaning the 230 they came from it was a bacteria factory. tick poor job of cleaning that tank right I know that.
Jai

If they are eating likely no need to use other meds now. In my opinion could cause added stress together. Visible problem was on the outside copper working on that. Just have to wait it out and keep up on water quality.

 

[jaihutcherson]

If they are eating likely no need to use other meds now. In my opinion could cause added stress together. Visible problem was on the outside copper working on that. Just have to wait it out and keep up on water quality.

@Humblefish @DrZoidburg

ok, as stated above everything looking good……

just ran parameters on FOWLR Hospitol tank (150g, bare bottom, 36g trigger sump) and ammonia is at 2.0ppm. This is after doing a 60g water change last night at about 9pm. Before that water change I was at 1.0.

eel tank, 75g, 26g trigger, reef octopus skimmer) 40 gallon water change about 830p last night with a .25 ammonia level test. Just tested have .5 ammonia, 160 nitrate, 2.0 nitrite. These eels have not eaten anything. There is no over feeding or any food in tank. We feed them all on a stick. If thevv TV dong eat the food comes out. I’ve got roughly 80lbs of live rock with less than 2 weeks water time. Used bio spira or what ever it’s called, have bio hotels in sump more than enough tkk ok house bacteria……..

****** on both, eel and FOWLR, my filter socks (50 micron) clog within 8 hours each time a new one is used. I had this issue in reef tank a while back and had serious bacteria issue. Water in FOWLR still cloudy no matter water changes. Eel tank clear as could be but socks still clogging too fast. Just info for you to digest and seem important or not.

- please let me know what I can do to reduce ammonia on FOWLER while doing copper treatment.

- I’m at a loss with eels. No food in no poop out …. Why would these levels be so high especially after water change.

As always, thank you for the help and direction. I don’t expect you to do so and am greatful each time you do set aside the time and take the effort.
Jai

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Humblefish @DrZoidburg

ok, as stated above everything looking good……

just ran parameters on FOWLR Hospitol tank (150g, bare bottom, 36g trigger sump) and ammonia is at 2.0ppm. This is after doing a 60g water change last night at about 9pm. Before that water change I was at 1.0.

eel tank, 75g, 26g trigger, reef octopus skimmer) 40 gallon water change about 830p last night with a .25 ammonia level test. Just tested have .5 ammonia, 160 nitrate, 2.0 nitrite. These eels have not eaten anything. There is no over feeding or any food in tank. We feed them all on a stick. If thevv TV dong eat the food comes out. I’ve got roughly 80lbs of live rock with less than 2 weeks water time. Used bio spira or what ever it’s called, have bio hotels in sump more than enough tkk ok house bacteria……..

****** on both, eel and FOWLR, my filter socks (50 micron) clog within 8 hours each time a new one is used. I had this issue in reef tank a while back and had serious bacteria issue. Water in FOWLR still cloudy no matter water changes. Eel tank clear as could be but socks still clogging too fast. Just info for you to digest and seem important or not.

- please let me know what I can do to reduce ammonia on FOWLER while doing copper treatment.

- I’m at a loss with eels. No food in no poop out …. Why would these levels be so high especially after water change.

As always, thank you for the help and direction. I don’t expect you to do so and am greatful each time you do set aside the time and take the effort.
Jai

Fish excrete ammonia from their gills through normal metabolic processes, so ammonia can build up in aquariums even when no food is being added. It is quite common for moderately stocked tanks with no active bio-filter, to build up more than 1 ppm of ammonia in 24 hours. This can be even higher if the bio-load is heavy. That results in the conundrum where somebody changes 100% of the tank water (say in two 50% water changes in one day) and the ammonia level still goes up.

Depending on what copper product you are using, your options to control ammonia may be limited. Cupramine cannot be used with ammonia removers, and the jury is still out if ammonia removers are always safe to use with copper power or copper safe.

You may not have used enough bio-spira for the amount of biomass your tanks have.

Here is a trick many people aren't aware of: ammonia is much more toxic to fish at a high pH than at a low pH. If you can't get rid of the ammonia, you can make it less toxic by lowering the pH. The problem of course is that marine fish normally live at a high pH. For freshwater fish, just drop the pH down to 6.5 and the fish will do better. In marine tanks, you can't do that, but you *can* lower the pH below 8.0 - 7.8 is just fine for the fish. It won't detoxify all of the ammonia, but it will help.

Jay

 

[Little c big D]

Could there be test errors at that low of an ammonia level?

 

[jaihutcherson]

Fish excrete ammonia from their gills through normal metabolic processes, so ammonia can build up in aquariums even when no food is being added. It is quite common for moderately stocked tanks with no active bio-filter, to build up more than 1 ppm of ammonia in 24 hours. This can be even higher if the bio-load is heavy. That results in the conundrum where somebody changes 100% of the tank water (say in two 50% water changes in one day) and the ammonia level still goes up.

Depending on what copper product you are using, your options to control ammonia may be limited. Cupramine cannot be used with ammonia removers, and the jury is still out if ammonia removers are always safe to use with copper power or copper safe.

You may not have used enough bio-spira for the amount of biomass your tanks have.

Here is a trick many people aren't aware of: ammonia is much more toxic to fish at a high pH than at a low pH. If you can't get rid of the ammonia, you can make it less toxic by lowering the pH. The problem of course is that marine fish normally live at a high pH. For freshwater fish, just drop the pH down to 6.5 and the fish will do better. In marine tanks, you can't do that, but you *can* lower the pH below 8.0 - 7.8 is just fine for the fish. It won't detoxify all of the ammonia, but it will help.

Jay

Thanks Jay. That explains a lot.

 

[jaihutcherson]

Hey All,

just a quick update. Hospitol tank doing hood no more losses. All, including puffers doing well. No signs of anything on any fish. Water has cleared considerably. Still having some sort of bacteria issue. Parameters at a bit high but I am figuring they are gonna be there until I can get them out of a bare bottom tank with no live rock or “hotels” to house hood bacteria. Doing daily water changes to keep parameters as best as can.

I am planning a round of Rally pro once the coppersafe treatment is done……. Also have general cure any thoughts on which may be better for secondary bacteria issues?

jai

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hey All,

just a quick update. Hospitol tank doing hood no more losses. All, including puffers doing well. No signs of anything on any fish. Water has cleared considerably. Still having some sort of bacteria issue. Parameters at a bit high but I am figuring they are gonna be there until I can get them out of a bare bottom tank with no live rock or “hotels” to house hood bacteria. Doing daily water changes to keep parameters as best as can.

I am planning a round of Rally pro once the coppersafe treatment is done……. Also have general cure any thoughts on which may be better for secondary bacteria issues?

jai

What is the ammonia running at? Chronic high ammonia can cause issues over time.

Jay

 

[jaihutcherson]

What is the ammonia running at? Chronic high ammonia can cause issues over time.

Jay

@Jay Hemdal
Thanks for getting back to me! Currently the eel tank is reading .5 in ammonia. No matter water changes every other day, 40g (50%), or daily, 25-30%, I can not get it below this. The other Hospitol 150g), housing fish only, bare bottom, pvc, old skimmer running but no collection cup (for oxygen only) stays at 1.0. On that tank I am netting out any and all left over food 1hr after feeding and doing a 50 gallon (30%) water change daily. I did, last night, finally put a few more 2” pvc pipes about 8” long stuffed with course filter pieces in the tank to hopefully act as bacteria hotel so I can get a bit of beneficial activity happening in the tank. I have another cheap (I believe coralife 120) skimmer running cupless for oxygen. To refresh you; 2 puffers (6” each), 2 triggers (6” and 7”), domino damsel (4” was supposed to be eel food after being removed from my reef but somehow made it), reef beauty (3”), pokadot grouper (8”). Tank 150g, sump trigger 36 (running bare except course filter and very full).

thanks for the help. Anything I should change or can run to help reduce ammonia or nitrates would be great. I’ve got enough spare gear to put something on if needed.

jai

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal
Thanks for getting back to me! Currently the eel tank is reading .5 in ammonia. No matter water changes every other day, 40g (50%), or daily, 25-30%, I can not get it below this. The other Hospitol 150g), housing fish only, bare bottom, pvc, old skimmer running but no collection cup (for oxygen only) stays at 1.0. On that tank I am netting out any and all left over food 1hr after feeding and doing a 50 gallon (30%) water change daily. I did, last night, finally put a few more 2” pvc pipes about 8” long stuffed with course filter pieces in the tank to hopefully act as bacteria hotel so I can get a bit of beneficial activity happening in the tank. I have another cheap (I believe coralife 120) skimmer running cupless for oxygen. To refresh you; 2 puffers (6” each), 2 triggers (6” and 7”), domino damsel (4” was supposed to be eel food after being removed from my reef but somehow made it), reef beauty (3”), pokadot grouper (8”). Tank 150g, sump trigger 36 (running bare except course filter and very full).

thanks for the help. Anything I should change or can run to help reduce ammonia or nitrates would be great. I’ve got enough spare gear to put something on if needed.

jai

That ammonia level is very high for fish to survive for long. First thing is to determine if your ammonia test is accurate. What brand are you using? The API kit ad the Seachem badge both have accuracy issues.

For the eel tank, they are pretty tough. I would say that 0.50 ppm would be o.k. as long as the pH is below 7.9

The 1.0 reading on the fish only tank is the real issue. Can you add more "bacteria in a bottle"? Do you have active bio media you can scrounge from somewhere, a friend or your LSS?

Jay

 

[jaihutcherson]

That ammonia level is very high for fish to survive for long. First thing is to determine if your ammonia test is accurate. What brand are you using? The API kit ad the Seachem badge both have accuracy issues.

For the eel tank, they are pretty tough. I would say that 0.50 ppm would be o.k. as long as the pH is below 7.9

The 1.0 reading on the fish only tank is the real issue. Can you add more "bacteria in a bottle"? Do you have active bio media you can scrounge from somewhere, a friend or your LSS?

Jay

@Jay Hemdal

api kit. Headed to LFS now to buy the Hanna checker. I will get some more bacteria in a bottle for both. I can pull the sponges from my 90 reef and place in the 150. Both using same, but separate units, trigger sump. So it’ll fit in well. I have an 8.3ph on eel tank. Two are eating well but absolutely no activity. One has not eaten yet but extremely active. He wraps around the stick as always gets excited but then swims without eating. Tried all his favorites plus some other all gripped no garlic.

will go to lfs now and treat/test and get back to you with results.

oh, how many water changes too many? I’ve got salt for days on end but been too afraid to do more than 40-50% daily.
Jai