Velvet or ich?

Maritimer · Jul 5, 2018

Probably no reason not to treat as velvet ... you'll want to ramp copper (assuming that's what you're using, as CP can be difficult to source - it requires a veterinary prescription) relatively quickly. Even though you want to be at full therapeutic levels within 48 hours, it seems to help to spread that out over as many doses as possible; morning/lunchtime/afternoon/before bed (if you can pull that schedule off) would give you four smaller doses per day.

~Bruce

Humblefish · Jul 5, 2018

The white dots look too large to be velvet; I suspect a bad case of ich: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

Big G · Jul 5, 2018

Rapid treatment for Velvet is crucial. Here's Humblefish's Emergency treatment. I've highlighted the crucial parts that really have helped increase survival rates. When dosing the copper, smaller for frequent dosing is much easier on the fish than a couple of big doses. Copper Power is what many of us are recommending these days. Avoid Coppersafe brand.

The short version:

5 minute freshwater dip
Immediately afterwards, perform a chemical bath (in saltwater matching SG/temp the fish came from). You have two options:

Acriflavine (preferred) - Do the bath for 75-90 minutes, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain acriflavine: Acriflavine-MS and Ruby Reef Rally. DO NOT mix acriflavine with any other chemicals.
Formalin - Do the bath for 30-60 minutes max, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS, Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus. Use protection (rubber gloves, face mask, eye protection, etc.) whenever handling formalin as it is a known carcinogen! However, you can add Methylene Blue to the formalin bath (1 capful per 2-3 gallons of bath water.)

After the bath, place the fish in a QT pre-dosed at 80mg/gal using Chloroquine phosphate. In theory, copper (exs. Cupramine, Coppersafe, Copper Power) should work just as well as CP. However, due to how fast velvet can reproduce you don’t have the luxury of slowly ramping up the copper level as is normally advised. Therefore, the fish needs to be placed in a QT with copper already at minimum therapeutic levels. This is the advantage CP has over copper in this particular situation.
While in QT, use a wide spectrum antibiotic (exs. Seachem Kanaplex, Furan-2) for the first week to ward off any possible bacterial infections. Secondary bacterial infections are very common in fish with preexisting parasitic infestations such as velvet.
Keep the fish in CP or copper (at therapeutic levels) for one month. However, you can transfer the fish into a non-medicated holding tank for observation after just two weeks (explained below). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring.

Jessl17 · Jul 5, 2018

Big G said:
Rapid treatment for Velvet is crucial. Here's Humblefish's Emergency treatment. I've highlighted the crucial parts that really have helped increase survival rates. When dosing the copper, smaller for frequent dosing is much easier on the fish than a couple of big doses. Copper Power is what many of us are recommending these days. Avoid Coppersafe brand.

The short version:

5 minute freshwater dip

Immediately afterwards, perform a chemical bath (in saltwater matching SG/temp the fish came from). You have two options:

Acriflavine (preferred) - Do the bath for 75-90 minutes, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain acriflavine: Acriflavine-MS and Ruby Reef Rally. DO NOT mix acriflavine with any other chemicals.

Formalin - Do the bath for 30-60 minutes max, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS, Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus. Use protection (rubber gloves, face mask, eye protection, etc.) whenever handling formalin as it is a known carcinogen! However, you can add Methylene Blue to the formalin bath (1 capful per 2-3 gallons of bath water.)

After the bath, place the fish in a QT pre-dosed at 80mg/gal using Chloroquine phosphate. In theory, copper (exs. Cupramine, Coppersafe, Copper Power) should work just as well as CP. However, due to how fast velvet can reproduce you don’t have the luxury of slowly ramping up the copper level as is normally advised. Therefore, the fish needs to be placed in a QT with copper already at minimum therapeutic levels. This is the advantage CP has over copper in this particular situation.

While in QT, use a wide spectrum antibiotic (exs. Seachem Kanaplex, Furan-2) for the first week to ward off any possible bacterial infections. Secondary bacterial infections are very common in fish with preexisting parasitic infestations such as velvet.

Keep the fish in CP or copper (at therapeutic levels) for one month. However, you can transfer the fish into a non-medicated holding tank for observation after just two weeks (explained below). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring.

I can’t get the Acriflavine or formalin where I am I can order it online but I don’t know if it will be useful by the time it gets here. I fear it will be to late. I have cupramine on hand and that is what I dosed the qt tank with before I left this morning to get it running I’m there. Can I get the powder from my vet possibly? And what do I ask for?

4FordFamily · Jul 5, 2018

If ich it’s one of the worst cases I’ve seen, particularly on a dottyback.

You’re in good hands here for sure I agree treat it like velvet — aggressively!

Good luck!

Mini Coop · Jul 5, 2018

Good luck! Been there. Looks like everyone has you covered, but certainly get them in the FW dip! It will or can make a huge difference. I had a McCosker come down with velvet overnight like that.
5 minute FW dip
75 minute reef rally bath
Then into a new QT and raised copper over several doses a day as mentioned. And he made it! Thought he was a goner!

He has graduated into the main tank and is FAT and happy!

lion king · Jul 5, 2018

Jessl17 said:
Thanks for all your quick responses I originally thought ich as well but then started seeing pictures of velvet and thought it looked more like that. But I’m surely no expert. I have a qt tank running and put cupramine in it this morning and am going to tackle getting them all out when I get home from work. Any idea why it all popped out like that over 1 night? That’s whats confusing me.

A stressor happened in your tank to spur the outbreak. Sometimes no matter how hard we try, we get a carrier in our tank not showing symptoms. This is what happened in 2 our my tanks to spur an ich outbreak. I had a flasher wrasse gaining aggressive behavior at the same time I was getting extreme temp swings The 2nd tank was right after using chemiclean to rid the tank of cyano, it was already an aggressive tanbk, the drop in O2 due to the chemiclean likely pushed the tank over the edge..

Jessl17 · Jul 5, 2018

lion king said:
A stressor happened in your tank to spur the outbreak. Sometimes no matter how hard we try, we get a carrier in our tank not showing symptoms. This is what happened in 2 our my tanks to spur an ich outbreak. I had a flasher wrasse gaining aggressive behavior at the same time I was getting extreme temp swings The 2nd tank was right after using chemiclean to rid the tank of cyano, it was already an aggressive tanbk, the drop in O2 due to the chemiclean likely pushed the tank over the edge..

Yea I agree I just don’t know what happened. They have all been in there for at least a week perfectly fine and I have seen no aggression. I did with the dottyback when I first put the wrasse in but like I had mentioned before I haven’t seen the wrasse since the night I put him in and lifted all the rocks up last night and couldn’t find him. So I’m not sure if he’s still in there or not. But this is stressful for sure

Nopy117 · Jul 6, 2018

Crabs Mcjones said:
Welcome to R2R!

#WelcometoR2R
Does look like ich, but as you stated treatment for both is the same, with a 78 fallow period for your display tank to kill off all traces of the parasite.
Check out this thread here and also this one
And always remember, never treat in your display tank, always in a qt tank

You mean 76? or did 2 days get added onto the 76?

Crabs McJones · Jul 6, 2018

Nopy117 said:
You mean 76? or did 2 days get added onto the 76?

I run 78, 76 is the standard, but I like the two extra days for observation

Fudsey · Jul 6, 2018

Funny thing, I was told 90 by some local reefers to be absolutely sure. My tank has been fallow for 83 days but I added a couple frags after a couple weeks. I trust the person I got them from doesn't have ich but I am going on vacation in 2 weeks and it will just be easier to wait until after to add fish. I lost everything I had to it.

Jessl17 · Jul 7, 2018

Well thanks to all of you for all your help and advice. I have been able to get all the fish to the qt except my firefish ‍

I can’t get them out of my tank.. so if anyone has any tricks to get them out let me know. I guess worst case I can open the lid and wait but there’s 3 of them and I don’t know what else to do. Everything spooks them. Everyone in the qt seems to be doing ok except my goby he doesn’t seem to be to well. Would it be ok if I put a small plate of sand in there for him or should I not? I feel bad but maybe he’s fine and I’m just feeling bad for him lol