Vendors Gone Insane?

[jhebi]

I do believe prices skyrocket, many suppliers charging what they feel is fit for the market, but at the same time they are still supplying for a reason, they are selling. There are reefers that will spend $ 2 K easily without hesitation if they like the coral, some will just nag and kick around thinking why it is so expensive. To me, I am in the middle and I do like some expensive corals, some died some are still growing, but when the time comes to frag, I will definitely trade or sell for much less. I believe this hobby is to enjoy what you have a piece of the ocean in your living room and at the same time meet great reefers around the world.

The one thing that bug me the most are the coral names. I see one vendor calling this coral i.e. " Pink Panther Tenius" and the other vendor have the same thing and it calls "OG Pink Tenius". One sells for $ 50.00 and the other sells for $ 500.00. I am no coral expert, but you could see they are the same coral after all.

 

[Brandon Smith]

You're basing your savings off of the same place you purchased the corals from. That's not a good comparison. That's like when my wife comes home with bags full of stuff from Kohl's and says she saved $XXX because they cleverly put their "sale price" right next to the "retail price" when in fact the retail price is ALWAYS the sale price... NO SAVINGS!! Or when supermarkets want to track what we purchase so they make us carry a card that offers savings when you use it, when really the sticker price is elevated so that you feel good about using that card that tracks your purchases so that they can market goods to the proper demographic. The consumer is being manipulated so that businesses can better market products at NO cost to them and NO savings to you. Yet I digress...

You raise a good point, what never squares with me and I think the underlying purpose of this thread is, "who gets to choose the price? And how do they get people to pay it?"

I read "supply and demand" supply and demand" and I wish I could wrap my mind around that as well.

I can see how it can be construed as supply and demand, but when the company has their finger on the scale, then it's no longer that simple.

How do you create demand? well the easy way is what we all learned in 8th grade economics, unfortunately that's as far as most of our knowledge goes, a teacher explained in clear detail the definition of supply and demand and it wasn't a hard concept to grasp. The scenario you were given to understand in school isn't the end of how we determine value. Supply and demand dictates the monetary value of an item but through market manipulation they can oversale a product, make you want something that you really don't need (like the shelby GT). At that point there is an over fabricated demand for this stuff. Marketing preys on the unknowing, a good marketing campaign forces someone to need something that they never knew they even wanted. They manipulate you to think that YOU were the one that made an informed decision to give away YOU'RE hard earned money when all they did was cleverly control YOUR purchasing power.

I've said in other threads that marketing in this niche community has really grown up, and that's why I applaud threads like this because it educates the masses that the price that is set solely by a small group doesn't dictate the value, but in most peoples minds it does. We have to change that way of thinking, only then will companies like wwc realize that they no longer have control over how we spend our money.

I put the blame on uneducated consumers, but I also point the finger at the companies that operate in this fashion, they have an ethical obligation to center their morale compass.






I agree that there is plenty of blame to go around. Addressing your first statement, hobbyist that unwittingly purchase coral at the manipulated price feels they have an obligation to sell the same coral for the same price or for a slightly discounted price, when all along the discounted price is still over REAL market value.

The other day I asked a hobbyist that has turned his hobby into a bunch of frag tanks, how he determines price?
His answer,"I go online and see what they are selling for". It's safe to assume he's not the only one. WE will never get control of prices if common sense doesn't take the wheel. We just need to educate the masses and hope to see fair prices in the future.

I have one question for you, have you ever worked in management in a Big Box retail store. I don't believe that you because your understanding of how sales operate is completely wrong.

 

[MnFish1]

I have one question for you, have you ever worked in management in a Big Box retail store. I don't believe that you because your understanding of how sales operate is completely wrong.

Curious - are you talking about the concept of 'loss leaders'? Or something else?

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I don't believe that you because your understanding of how sales operate is completely wrong.

Can you elaborate?

 

[nickkohrn]

WWC has insanely rigorous quarantine procedures, so you are definitely paying for that. You aren't going to get AEFW or any other pests from them. Just need to determine if the price is worth it

I’m not doubting that they have a rigorous routine. I saw their shops, and they are fantastic. However, I did purchase a handful of frags from them a couple of months ago, and two out of six came in with colonial hydroids on the skeletons and plugs. I simply epoxied over those areas, but I did lose a lot of coral tissue in that process.

I’m not speaking negatively about WWC; I simply wanted to state that even some of the best can charge high prices and still be vulnerable to pests.

I stopped ordering corals from online vendors, and I now purchase them from local hobbyists so that I can inspect them and see how their husbandry affects their systems. It also has a benefit of building personal relationships with locals, which can be a benefit when you need help while on vacation or during maintenance or moving.

 

[sde1500]

Doesn't this occur in all retail areas? Some places would mark it up more than 40%. I don't believe there is anything unique to reefing in this whole issue.

JC Penny brought in a new CEO that cut prices and killed their over prevalent coupon/sales style business. Shoppers revolted. They literally wanted prices marked up to be marked down.

I read "supply and demand" supply and demand" and I wish I could wrap my mind around that as well

Quite a simple concept really. While I get what you say about marketing, supply and demand still has its place.

I've said in other threads that marketing in this niche community has really grown up, and that's why I applaud threads like this because it educates the masses that the price that is set solely by a small group doesn't dictate the value, but in most peoples minds it does. We have to change that way of thinking, only then will companies like wwc realize that they no longer have control over how we spend our money.

I think using niche is a cop out on the consumer’s part. An extremely important part of any market is access to information. It’s a competition, suppliers want the market to be opaque, consumers want/need transparency. With the Internet we have access to all the information we need. It is beyond simple to find a coral you like at WWC, and google search it at others. Of course the names now can add some confusion, but there are tools for that as well. A reverse image search to find corals that look similar for instance. We live in an age of massive information. To act like we’re unable to combat supposed misinformation of an Internet based company is foolish.

 

[MnFish1]

Quite a simple concept really. While I get what you say about marketing, supply and demand still has its place.

Marketing creates demand. Right?

JC Penny brought in a new CEO that cut prices and killed their over prevalent coupon/sales style business. Shoppers revolted. They literally wanted prices marked up to be marked down.

The problem with Ron Johnson was that he also ditched a number of popular brands (St Johns Bay) - brought in entire new line of products that did not fit the customer - and set up the stores more like 'Apple Stores' - which was a hassle. He also stopped having 'sales'.

I do not believe that it's typical for companies to raise their prices 50% and then have a 50% off sale. Instead - the 'regular price is marked up from the start - and then companies have that item perpetually on sale'. That to me is different - and in at least some states is not allowed. In other cases I think the put items on sale that are 'not selling' - or as loss leaders - i.e. come in and buy the sale item - and 10 other things. Now of course some stores do this

 

[jsvand5]

The problem is that people pay for the names instead of actually paying for the coral. The vast majority of these designer corals don’t look any better than cheap aquacultured pieces in person. Doesn’t seem to be something that will be going away any time soon. My favorite pieces in my tank are $20 frags. The “designer” acros I have don’t really impress me much. I would bet you’d have trouble getting more than $30 for a homewrecker frag if you took the name away and had it on a rack with a bunch of no name Aussie frags.


I got a bunch of these frags from a vendor on eBay. Price ranged from. $16-$23 depending on who was bidding against. Darker blue than Oregon tort in my tank. I really wonder what it would cost if it had a name slapped on it by one of the well known acro sellers.

 

[totalbiz]

No simply because the market sets the price. YES it does suck that frags cost that much but as long as the consumer is willing to pay a price then I don't think a company should undersell the product just to make people like you happy.

No simply because the market sets the price. YES it does suck that frags cost that much but as long as the consumer is willing to pay a price then I don't think a company should undersell the product just to make people like you happy.

You know, he is just expressing an opinon. I don't think you need the sarcasm. I completely agree with him. Prices for corals now is nonsense. I am involved in another hobby that had a massive price increase in the 1970's. It lasted about ten years, and then the bottom dropped out. People stopped paying the prices, and dealers who bought items at huge prices were left holding the bag. They either sold for market price, or they went out of business. The point is, the dealer community is trying to make huge profits in the short term. A recipe for disaster almost always. Instead of thinking about the slightly longer term, dollars today is all that matters.

 

[MnFish1]

You know, he is just expressing an opinon. I don't think you need the sarcasm. I completely agree with him. Prices for corals now is nonsense. I am involved in another hobby that had a massive price increase in the 1970's. It lasted about ten years, and then the bottom dropped out. People stopped paying the prices, and dealers who bought items at huge prices were left holding the bag. They either sold for market price, or they went out of business. The point is, the dealer community is trying to make huge profits in the short term. A recipe for disaster almost always. Instead of thinking about the slightly longer term, dollars today is all that matters.

Just because he disagreed with your philosophy doesnt mean those comments were sarcastic right? I mean - I disagree that people can just claim someone is being immoral for 'having a live sale' or 'selling at a higher price'. One of 2 things will happen (as you said) - the person charging the higher prices will not sell their product - because others are selling at a lower price - and they will have to lower their prices - or they will go out of business. Its their choice. Your choice is not to buy from them.

Take the art market - Its mostly wealthy people that buy Picassos. After all its really only paint and paper or canvas. So - what can't I go to an art dealership that bought a Picasso etching for example at 10,000 at an auction - and say '(the dealer) is beingunfair because he/she is selling it for $30,000? I mean I guess I could go in and do that but it would be ridiculous (IMO) to do so. The gallery has overhead, has the piece sitting in their place for perhaps months, has to talk to numerous people who 'might or might not' be interested, etc etc - i.e. they have costs- and if someone is willing to pay $30,000 - they are entitled to earn any profit 'they can'. Its not their responsibility to ensure that everyone wants a Picasso gets one at the price they can afford - to me its the same for corals - or what am I missing here?.

 

[sde1500]

Marketing creates demand. Right?

Absolutely. All part of the same puzzle of course. Just wanted to make that clear as they tend to completely dismiss that, equating it entirely to nothing more than some marketing sham.

 

[tgionet]

All I have to say about WWC is $650 walt disney, $90 frogskin acro.

That's more than I paid for a WD from WWC 3 years ago.

 

[Fishurama]

Sadly this hobby has a lot of "whales" as the video game industry likes to call them,who will and can spend that much money on it, not to care if it does die. Its pocket change to them, most of us can't wrap our heads around that since that is a lot of money to us, but to those who can afford 1 inch 650 dollar frags, it's nothing, they are on their yacht the next day.(lol maybe not yacht but you get my point)

 

[Shep]

In the process of cleaning up the thread, remember that political comments are not allowed and will be removed. Consider this the only warning as it keeps derailing the thread

 

[C. Eymann]

This is my experience working on both sides of the counter.

I saw the "comic book name" coral market evolve from birth to present day, back when tubbz blue zoas where "new" or "hot", also frag plugs didn't exist, I remember using plastic poker chips as frag plugs for a german blue polyp digitata and chips acro frags, I also remember paying $90 bones for a dime sized speck of superman montipora on a poker chip back in 2006. As corals are more propagated/cultivated among hobbyists the price drops.
Mariculture and wild collecting operations stay in the know about what's hot in the SPS/coral trade and will begin culturing what's hot, and there will be an influx of these maricultured and or wild collected specimens that share the same color morph of whatever is currently hot.

I saw this with favites pentagona/war coral, rainbow montipora, sunset milliepora, pink lemonade, shortcake and now tenuis, also latistellas and selagos are becoming the hot stuff and of course you will begin to see an influx of these start flooding in from mariculture and collecting stations.


Back in the beginning of the name craze it was looked down upon to call some wild collected coral that shared the same color morph as bobbys ' bubblegum watermelon ____________ as bobby's bubblegum watermelon__________.
These days, you just put your name or your stores name in front of "bubble gum watermelon____" and its good to go!

I was guilty of it when I helped manage a LFS, Doing coral orders I would be asking Gavin at Pacific Aqua Farms for Solomon islands "wild" purple monsters, pink lemonade nasutas, cultured pokerstars, etc etc etc.

This is a lot of what's been going on with big name stores, they can order wild mother colonies of whatever and pay maybe $100 wholesale if it's a big one, chop it up and make 50-60 frags that after a month of growth they can sell for $100 a piece ! It's a lucrative business, gotta eat? gotta pay employees? I'm not mad at WWC or all the others for capitalizing on this? if you can do it, do it.

 

[Doctorgori]

Ita math and markets...if someone could mass produce cheap frags and make a profit we would see the proliferation of them:
"Frag-Mart" ..."Frag Depot" ....et et ... NTM people get suspicious and devalue "cheap" and inexpensive .... this is why after buying corals since the early 90's I've NEVER bothered with remembering all the cute names ...I get whatever is cheap and looks good in my tank and grows

 

[Sump Crab]

In the process of cleaning up the thread, remember that political comments are not allowed and will be removed. Consider this the only warning as it keeps derailing the thread

I don't think anyone tried to break the rules of R2R. Sometimes things just escalate. With that being said, when the general nature of the thread is focused on the merits or disfunctions of capitalism and the free market then political comments are bound to pop up. Once we really get down to the basic fundamentals of the OP's original question I think we find a controversial subject with passionate camps on both sides.

Perhaps I am wrong but this is just how my brain works.

 

[Shep]

I don't think anyone tried to break the rules of R2R. Sometimes things just escalate. With that being said, when the general nature of the thread is focused on the merits or disfunctions of capitalism and the free market then political comments are bound to pop up. Once we really get down to the basic fundamentals of the OP's original question I think we find a controversial subject with passionate camps on both sides.

Perhaps I am wrong but this is just how my brain works.

I understand that it can be difficult given the nature of the topic and I don't think it was deliberate but none the less, political comments are not allowed per the terms of service. If you wish to discuss this topic further please send me a PM as I don't want to drag the thread off topic

 

[Jon Warner]

Just a note... the "flavor of the day" varieties are always TOP DOLLAR.

You can still get the "flavor of the day" from 2016 and now they're dirt cheap.

Remember when Miami Hurricane chalice frags were $$$?

 

[ReeferB28]

@ OP, Vendors have been slowly losing their minds over the past few years. Sale posts back in the day , " $150-250 for small Rainbow acan colony. Today, " Rainbow Rasta Fairfart "RARE" Rainbow acan frag. $200 for 1 Polyp. **** here with that bs. lol