Very new - Dead sailfin question

[Denise Nowell]

I have a 65-gallon reef tank. The inhabitants are (and these are in order of addition to the tank) 1 two spot damsel, two maroon clownfish, 1 blue hippo tang, 1 six line wrasse, 1 coral beauty and one rusty angel. I am completely aware that the hippo tang will need to be moved within the year (I am getting a 180 next year). There is also two large emerald crabs, one large green bubble tip anemone and one small tuxedo urchin. I have an extremely large skimmer (meant for the 180), 90 pounds of live rock and several corals (acan, zoas, flower pot, brain coral, doughnut and mushroom). Added a sailfin on Saturday afternoon, purchased it from the same place I got my whole tank set up and other fish. Took an hour and half to acclimate him into the tank. I took my time. By Sunday morning he was dead. He swam all night long (yes I checked by turning on a side lamp so as not to disturb the other fish) and by early Sunday morning was having trouble staying upright and within the hour he was dead. Called the fish store and they asked that I bring in a sample of my water. I had videoed the whole process so they saw him as he was expiring. Took water in and all parameters were amazing. 0 nitrates and nitrites, no ammonia so speak of and the list goes on. My salinity was at 0.127. The fish store informed me that their salinity is at 0.19 and that my water was too "salty" for him which is why he died. Any thoughts. No signs of torn fins or any other trauma to the body. Thoughts.

 

[Ruben's Reef]

!!! Welcome to R2R Denise !!! Sorry for your loss. IF they had their salinity at 0.19 and you have at 0.27, that's a huge jump on salinity but how long you give the fish to acclimate? You don't have a quarantine tank? If all the water parameters are good, that's probably a high chance that the salinity difference kill the fish.

 

[Denise Nowell]

!!! Welcome to R2R Denise !!! Sorry for your loss. IF they had their salinity at 0.19 and you have at 0.27, that's a huge jump on salinity but how long you give the fish to acclimate? You don't have a quarantine tank? If all the water parameters are good, that's probably a high chance that the salinity difference kill the fish.

I do not have a quarantine tank. All water parameters were very good and the only other thing that I added before I added the sailfin was some magnesium. This particular fish had 1 1/2 hours to acclimate. Almost an hour in the bag to get the temperature right and then adding some water from the tank about every ten minutes. The owners of the store suggested I lower my salinity and that it would also be better for my corals. I am a stickler and like to stay in the parameters. Thoughts on this also? Oh and thanks for replying I really appreciate it. I need all the knowledge and experience I can get - lol!!

 

[Ruben's Reef]

I do not have a quarantine tank. All water parameters were very good and the only other thing that I added before I added the sailfin was some magnesium. This particular fish had 1 1/2 hours to acclimate. Almost an hour in the bag to get the temperature right and then adding some water from the tank about every ten minutes. The owners of the store suggested I lower my salinity and that it would also be better for my corals. I am a stickler and like to stay in the parameters. Thoughts on this also? Oh and thanks for replying I really appreciate it. I need all the knowledge and experience I can get - lol!!

My pleasure. That's the reason a quarantine tank will help a lot when the LFS have the fish at a lower salinity. Your 1.027 is not that bad but the recommended salinity is 1.025 or even 1.026. I run mine at 1.025 and everybody is happy. My LFS have their fish at 1.023 that make a little easier to acclimate to 1.025. We never finish learning on this hobby but here we have a lot to read and videos to watch (BRS ) that helps a lot.

 

[scott11106]

My pleasure. That's the reason a quarantine tank will help a lot when the LFS have the fish at a lower salinity. Your 1.027 is not that bad but the recommended salinity is 1.025 or even 1.026. I run mine at 1.025 and everybody is happy. My LFS have their fish at 1.023 that make a little easier to acclimate to 1.025. We never finish learning on this hobby but here we have a lot to read and videos to watch (BRS ) that helps a lot.

how long has the tank been up and running?
the salinity is not the problem, however if they are running such a low salinity and you are running a normal reef tank salinity as you are you would need to have a QT tank and start at or near their salinity and then ramp up to your display salinity over time as that is too great of a difference.

 

[tdowning]

I've also begun to have my LFS's test their salinity before I purchase a fish. I then pay for the fish and come back the next day to pick up. In that time I make sure my QT's salinity matches the LFS's salinity, whatever it maybe and part of my QT process then towards the end of 6 weeks is to slowly bring up the QT salinity to my DT's salinity. Sorry for your loss it sucks, but like someone else said...this hobby is all about lessons and I'm pretty sure I have another 1000+ lessons to learn myself. Happy reefing to you!

 

[Dom]

I am a stickler and like to stay in the parameters. Thoughts on this also?

When it comes to water parameters, there are some general and widely accepted numbers in the hobby.

When people post about an issue with their tanks, they often say "all my numbers are good" or "my numbers are spot on" or "perfect".

In my opinion, no two tanks are the same and good numbers are relative to what is in your tank. As an example, LiveAquaria suggests a calcium level of 400-450. But if you are running a FOWLR, you can get away with much lower calcium levels.

My point: Don't chase textbook numbers. One day, you will look at your tank and say: "Hey... I really like the way things are looking". It is then that you should do a complete round of tests to see what the parameters are. THOSE are the parameters you should go for.

Personally, when I like how one of my tanks are looking, I take a photo and then do a round of testing, documenting the results on the photo. Now I know what I need for numbers on THAT tank and always have something to go back to when my tanks are looking less than happy.

 

[WVNed]

Your LFS is using low salinity to suppress disease.

Know more than the guy at your LFS.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/rhf/index.php

 

[Flippers4pups]

You have a lot going on in a 65 gallon. Did you observe any aggression? A established blue tang, six line wrasse, maroon clowns and a two spot damsel is a recipe for aggression to any fish added. Most of your current fish are highly territoral and in a 65 gallon, there isn't much territory to claim foot print wise of the tank.

 

[Denise Nowell]

No aggression issues since all fish were added either together (meaning same time and the maroon clowns and hippo tang came from the owner's personal tank) or within a week of each other. Two spot damsel was added first. This is how the LFS set up my tank. They delivered the tank, sand, live rock and water (both dirty and fresh saltwater - which they mixed with RO water right at my house) set the tank up with all and added 30 gallons of "dirty" water and mixed the rest. Started the filtration and let it run for three weeks. Had me bring a sample of my water and then the following week, another sample of my water and sent me home with one two-spot damsel. Waited a week and then another water sample and all other fish were added as per above. No fish in the tank appears stressed nor are there any fins nipped or torn. Every one has "their" place and they all eat well. As far as the sailfin, they all hid when I added him, checked in the middle of the night with a flashlight and all fish asleep except the sailfin. Even when awake, the next morning, they all still seemed to want to stay away from him. The clowns who are the most territorial but only if you are around their anemone. Then all bets are off. But the sailfin stayed away. I wonder if as stated before they are really running low salinity to suppress disease. They are not set up for quarantine tanks so the tanks in the back all share the same filtration. The only separate tank in the back is the owner's personal tank which is where I acquired the maroon clowns and the hippo tang along with several pieces of live rock. The tanks in the front of the store all have their own filtration including the frag tank. I am scheduled for a upgrade to a 180 sometime in May 2019. I am still keeping the 65. Hippo tang and the wrasses are the only fish I know for sure I will move to the larger tank. At this point, I have decided not to add anything additional to my tank in terms of fish or coral. I want to watch this one over the winter and see what it does. Or maybe everything goes over to the 180 and the 65 becomes my quarantine tank. I truly do appreciate all the help I can get. Sometimes I wonder if LFS just want to make the sale. Thanks again everyone!!

 

[Flippers4pups]

No aggression issues since all fish were added either together (meaning same time and the maroon clowns and hippo tang came from the owner's personal tank) or within a week of each other. Two spot damsel was added first. This is how the LFS set up my tank. They delivered the tank, sand, live rock and water (both dirty and fresh saltwater - which they mixed with RO water right at my house) set the tank up with all and added 30 gallons of "dirty" water and mixed the rest. Started the filtration and let it run for three weeks. Had me bring a sample of my water and then the following week, another sample of my water and sent me home with one two-spot damsel. Waited a week and then another water sample and all other fish were added as per above. No fish in the tank appears stressed nor are there any fins nipped or torn. Every one has "their" place and they all eat well. As far as the sailfin, they all hid when I added him, checked in the middle of the night with a flashlight and all fish asleep except the sailfin. Even when awake, the next morning, they all still seemed to want to stay away from him. The clowns who are the most territorial but only if you are around their anemone. Then all bets are off. But the sailfin stayed away. I wonder if as stated before they are really running low salinity to suppress disease. They are not set up for quarantine tanks so the tanks in the back all share the same filtration. The only separate tank in the back is the owner's personal tank which is where I acquired the maroon clowns and the hippo tang along with several pieces of live rock. The tanks in the front of the store all have their own filtration including the frag tank. I am scheduled for a upgrade to a 180 sometime in May 2019. I am still keeping the 65. Hippo tang and the wrasses are the only fish I know for sure I will move to the larger tank. At this point, I have decided not to add anything additional to my tank in terms of fish or coral. I want to watch this one over the winter and see what it does. Or maybe everything goes over to the 180 and the 65 becomes my quarantine tank. I truly do appreciate all the help I can get. Sometimes I wonder if LFS just want to make the sale. Thanks again everyone!!

The only other thing than stress that may be contributor would have been acclimation. Jumping from 17 to 27 may not have beem as a big effect as others have posted, depending on acclimation.

There has been emergency times for me when having to introduce a new fish to a system and it came from lower SG to higher SG and never lost a fish. Acclimation is key.

How did you do your acclimation?

 

[Denise Nowell]

Acclimated approximately 1 hour bag floated to get the temp correct. Then every ten minutes added water from the tank. I can't recall as well but I think I made four additions of water while floating. So in all about an hour and 40 minutes.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Acclimated approximately 1 hour bag floated to get the temp correct. Then every ten minutes added water from the tank. I can't recall as well but I think I made four additions of water while floating. So in all about an hour and 40 minutes.

Okay, around 15-20 mins is my Max on temp acclimation with the bag still tied shut. No biggie.

When doing the, I call "Dixie cup method", I take out a cup and add a cup. The reason is once that bag is opened the clock starts ticking. Once the ammonia hits that fresh air it starts to become toxic. Doing that process for 15-20 mins Max, transferring water every 5 mins.

Works like a charm. Never have lost a fish this way. Inverts require at least a hour drip. Fish can handle this way better than the osmotic shock does to inverts. Shrimp, stars, snails, crabs.....

Never add Prime or Amquel to the acclimation bucket because if the fish came from a copper environment that some LFS keep their fish in a therapeutic level, it causes the copper to become 10x the strength. Lethal.

 

[Flippers4pups]

It's possible, not certain, that without removing some water during acclimation that the ammonia may have damaged the fish. By not removing water the ammonia stayed in there with the fish. Tangs respirate a lot of water. It takes very little ammonia to do permanent damage to gill plates, sometimes it's lethal. Just takes time for the fish to suffocate from the damage.

Food for thought.

 

[Denise Nowell]

It's possible, not certain, that without removing some water during acclimation that the ammonia may have damaged the fish. By not removing water the ammonia stayed in there with the fish. Tangs respirate a lot of water. It takes very little ammonia to do permanent damage to gill plates, sometimes it's lethal. Just takes time for the fish to suffocate from the damage.

Food for thought.

Ugghhhh! It hurts my heart that I may have been responsible - even it was due to my own ignorance. This will go in my notes for future reference for the bigger tank. Thank you so much again!! Now on to the next thing. LOL! GBT! Different thread!

 

[Captain Quint]

.................... Sometimes I wonder if LFS just want to make the sale................

That is correct and the LFS is, in fact, running ~1.019 (not too far from hypo) as stated earlier. THEN they attempted to put it on you and not them when in fact they were at your home and should have known you are at ~1.027. They knew that you are fairly new in our hobby. Just so wrong. You're not alone some LFS' will do this. Not all, but some.

Dirty water. Shame on them, then probably before cycle time ended gave you a damsel to cycle a tank. That is pretty shady of them.

I'm sorry for your loss. And sorry for the Sailfin.

 

[Denise Nowell]

I got a refund of sorts for the dead fish. I told the owners that I would rather not add anything additional to my tank at the moment. They were not happy. But in my way of thinking which may be too emotional, I need to get over this loss. I felt completely helpless watching this poor fish die. And I also need to bring my salinity down to 0.125 and a small water change with RO water is what I am going to do tonight. I would rather know that I am taking super care of the ones that I have than to have a whole tank full and give them mediocre care. Now onto my bubble tip questions.

 

[Flippers4pups]

I got a refund of sorts for the dead fish. I told the owners that I would rather not add anything additional to my tank at the moment. They were not happy.

This is a shame. For the owners of a LFS to show disgust in not immediately buying another fish from them speaks volumes. I personally wouldn't buy from them again and find a different LFS.

 

[Captain Quint]

....................................

This is a shame. For the owners of a LFS to show disgust in not immediately buying another fish from them speaks volumes. I personally wouldn't buy from them again and find a different LFS.

I concur.

 

[Denise Nowell]

And the saga continues. Being new and learning, unfortunately has some very hard lessons. Looking back at video of the sailfin before it died, I notices a large amount of white spots on it. I remember asking the owner before purchasing the fish if it was okay and she replied, it is my best eater and tangs get those spots when they are stressed. Not knowing better, I believed her. This morning I am checking my tank, looking at each fish as I do every morning and every evening when I get in from work, I noticed that the damsel is dusted in white spots and his fins are clamped. Then I looked at my hippo tang and she looks like she has pimples underneath her skins and is rubbing as hard as she can against the rocks. Everyone else looks good, all are eating. Nothing has been added to the tank except for one small blue star polyp frag and I took out some water and added in some RO water on Friday evening. Sent the LFS owners a message because if what I read is correct and what I see is correct, they may have velvet or ich. Which means a copper treatment and that would be lethal for my corals and nem along with my crabs and snails. Sorry, but I feel sick at this point!!!