Vinegar and GFO for Phos, Nitrate and red slime algae

numsie · Mar 4, 2016

Hi Randy, I have asked you questions before about vinegar dosing. I was dosing only 3 to 5 ml per day and I was not getting great results. I started to slowly increase the dosage over a period of weeks and I am now dosing 20 ml per day. My nitrates where in the range of 10-20, now 0-5, very happy. The red slime nearly gone, but now my phos has jumped to 0.06 from 0.03. I have had a bag of GFO in my sump near the return pump since Jan 20th, I don't think it was getting enough water movement around it and this past Wednesday I moved it inside one of my filter socks, I will check my phos level this Sunday and see if it's gone down. So here is my question for you, My LFS wants me to stop the vinegar and start using Red Sea No Pox, he and several others I know have had good results with it. Should I try that and see what it does or should I continue what I am doing, I am also considering getting a GFO Reactor instead of the bag. Thanks much for your opinion.

scardall · Mar 4, 2016

I use NO3PO4 X with god results. IMO both a carbon and GFO have their advantages.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 5, 2016

I'm not convinced you will see more phosphate reduction switching to NOPOX, but you might and it is a fine experiment. They do not tell us wjhat all the ingredients are, but the main ingredients are ethanol (as in vodka) and acetate (as in vinegar), along with small amounts of isopropanol and methanol (which may be there by denaturing the ethanol to avoid alcohol taxes and regulations). But they also claim other unspecified ingredients that may be helpful (or not).

One reason the phosphate may have risen is just that lower nitrate means less growth or organisms like algae, that then take up less phosphate. Many people use GFO along with organic carbon dosing (I do).

Another option is to dose some nitrate and allow the organic carbon dosing to take up more phosphate.

scardall · Mar 5, 2016

In the past I had a Denitrification filter that used methanol. It worked well to remove Nitrates. The Reason i stopped using it is that I could not purchase methanol in quarts anymore and If I wanted it,I had to buy 5 gallons. The price was reasonable, but the safety hazards were to high for me. The jury is still out for me for now as whether there is a better product than NOPOX. I don't always know what the answers to some our issues sometimes, So I tend to move in the popular direction unless what I am doing is working for me or a point is made that seems to have some merit worth researching for me. I do have to admit that if a product works, I don't care what is in it as long as I know the Do's and Dont's for this product. (PS: I started dosing NOPOX at 5ml/day//6wks , 10ml/day 10wks // 20ml/day 3wks-- results improving in ref. to previous dosing schedules(75gal mixed reef,bare bottom)( Note: I have taken my GFO and carbon reactors offline for the past 9wks) 3 days a go I tested my PO4 3 times in a row with a Hanna colorometer. Results: .03ppm , 0ppm and 0ppm . When it is convenient for me I want to confirm my latest results with a LFS that I trust. Time Will Tell for now

:mad:

numsie · Mar 5, 2016

Thank you! I am always a bit cautious when it come to additives so when I am unsure I ask, I know LFS want to sell goods and I understand that, I trust my guy but second opinions reassure me. Any other opinion's please jump in!

numsie · Mar 6, 2016

So I did my water test this morning and now that the GFO is in my filter bag since last Wednesday the phos is now down to 0.02, upped the vinegar to 25 ml and nitrate seems to be close to 0, my LFS told me now that I have reached my goal I should cut the vinegar in half just to maintain, says I need some phos and some nitrate, opinions?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 6, 2016

You do not need phosphate is if you 0.02 ppm. Backing off the vinegar or adding nitrate or amino acids can both work, with slightly different benefits to each approach to making sure nitrate is not so low it begins to starve corals (they can begin to look pale).

numsie · Mar 6, 2016

So do you think I should cut the vinegar dose down to 15ml per day just to maintain?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 7, 2016

I think that is a reasonable plan, yes.

Kungpaoshizi · Mar 7, 2016

+1 to cut out the extra costs, get some nopox and reef energy. Easiest system I've ever used and it compliments each other better than any combo I've tried before. Methanol is also a key ingredient in nature. Many don't research it, but you could literally read about it's interactions in the ocean for a long time and still find new things. That's the major difference between vinegar (which I've used in the past) and nopox imo. I think there's still some analysis remaining before people really can say they KNOW anything about it, but compared to the tap water they use in the vinegar from the store, that's a huge bonus. I can only imagine all the crap feeding algae in the tap water that dilutes the vinegar.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 7, 2016

Kungpaoshizi said:
+1 to cut out the extra costs, get some nopox and reef energy. Easiest system I've ever used and it compliments each other better than any combo I've tried before. Methanol is also a key ingredient in nature. Many don't research it, but you could literally read about it's interactions in the ocean for a long time and still find new things. That's the major difference between vinegar (which I've used in the past) and nopox imo. I think there's still some analysis remaining before people really can say they KNOW anything about it, but compared to the tap water they use in the vinegar from the store, that's a huge bonus. I can only imagine all the crap feeding algae in the tap water that dilutes the vinegar.

While I disagree with your methanol theory, I'm am curious why you think that vinegar contains crappy tap water and NOPOX does not.

Chris Ferrell · Mar 7, 2016

Randy, hope I am not hijacking this thread but it brought up a question about my tank. I am using NoPox also but I am only dosing 2ml per day(based on Red Sea program) 93g cube with about 7 g in the sump, I have reduced it based on my nitrates reading 0 and have been for about 4 months now. I am feeding more and dosing reef energy, I also only run my skimmer about 12hrs a day. My phosphates run about 0.10 and I sample now about once a weak. So my question is should I stop dosing carbon(NoPox) or continue and or start using GFO to get the Po3 a little lower? My acros seem to be growing fine and laying down a good base but I am worried they will start fading(some have). Thanks.

scardall · Mar 7, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
While I disagree with your methanol theory, I'm am curious why you think that vinegar contains crappy tap water and NOPOX does not.

IMO Vinegar is more likely than not in using tap water to dilute the acid. But, when it comes to NOPOX, I would think that a company like Red Sea would more likely use RODI water than an unfiltered tap water. Unless you have the MSDS for each one, neither you, Kungpaoshizi or I know for sure water type of water is used in these products. I for one would love to know what is in these products sometimes or at least a pro's versus cons with minor explanation for each point.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 7, 2016

scardall said:
IMO Vinegar is more likely than not in using tap water to dilute the acid. But, when it comes to NOPOX, I would think that a company like Red Sea would more likely use RODI water than an unfiltered tap water. Unless you have the MSDS for each one, neither you, Kungpaoshizi or I know for sure water type of water is used in these products. I for one would love to know what is in these products sometimes or at least a pro's versus cons with minor explanation for each point.

Certainly true, I do not know all of the chemicals in vinegar or NOPOX. An MSDS will not distinguish types of water used, or even include minor components.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 7, 2016

Chris Ferrell said:
Randy, hope I am not hijacking this thread but it brought up a question about my tank. I am using NoPox also but I am only dosing 2ml per day(based on Red Sea program) 93g cube with about 7 g in the sump, I have reduced it based on my nitrates reading 0 and have been for about 4 months now. I am feeding more and dosing reef energy, I also only run my skimmer about 12hrs a day. My phosphates run about 0.10 and I sample now about once a weak. So my question is should I stop dosing carbon(NoPox) or continue and or start using GFO to get the Po3 a little lower? My acros seem to be growing fine and laying down a good base but I am worried they will start fading(some have). Thanks.

Yours is a not uncommon situation when organic carbon dosing since it is overbalanced to reduce nitrate. So when nitrate runs out, and further reduction in phosphate seems hard to accomplish with the organic alone, some other action might be useful.

That's why I use GFO, but others add other sources of nitrogen, such as nitrate or amino acids. Both ways can work.

Chris Ferrell · Mar 7, 2016

Thanks Randy, helpful as always. I do have some potassium nitrate coming but still trying to understand that whole debate before I start. I was using GFO but pulled it out because of 0 readings on phosphates. I guess I can just use small about so I don't remove it completely. Thanks again.

scardall · Mar 7, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Certainly true, I do not know all of the chemicals in vinegar or NOPOX. An MSDS will not distinguish types of water used, or even include minor components.

Thanks Randy I did not know that. It does not really matter to know all of what's in a product as one should know what should not be in a product. For Example: PO4 and NO3 should not be salt mixes

Chris Ferrell · Mar 7, 2016

scardall said:
Thanks Randy I did not know that. It does not really matter to know all of what's in a product as one should know what should not be in a product. For Example: PO4 and NO3 should not be salt mixes

So true, you look at all the other thing we put in our systems and don't blink an eye.