Vinegar dosing and Alk Tests

[ReefersDelite]

I recently changed from dosing NOPOX to just vinegar dosing and I have a delimma. Or a quandary one might say..
I've stopped all dosing on my Ca and Alk for over 3 months to try to get some stability in the tank because of a malfunctioning doser that has been replaced. Since then I test weekly to get my levels before and after WC to see my consumption of Ca and Alk. My Ca seems to fluctuate but I have a general idea of whats being consumed in a week but my Alk is always high 9.3 to 8.45 and never any lower. I'm testing the same time every week and its not changing.
For the past month I have changed from nopox because it left a slimy film on my equipment and I had some cyano issues and went to vinegar dosing.
My No3 and Po4 levels are fine now.
Question is this: with my vinegar dosing being the ONLY dosing going on at all, could that be effecting my Alk test results?
If I go with my current results I'll be only dosing Ca and no Alk.
Im using Salifert tests and I dose my vinegar when lights have been out for an hour. Thats at 12am and I do watwr tests after 7pm.
Any help would be great

 

[GMay]

Basic rule of thumb is that you should watch your alk consumption and not your calcium. Alk is consumed more than calcium and is thus a better measure of what is happening. If your alk is stable then you are not consuming all that much calcium. You also might consider not dosing any carbon, vinegar or other, unless you see a rise in NO3 or PO4.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The vinegar dosing is not directly causing a lack of alk consumption nor is it messing up the alk test in a way that causes what you are observing (although there are some temporary effects until the vinegar is metabolized).

But if nitrate was being lowered a lot, that boosts alk.

 

[ReefersDelite]

Ok. Kinda weird but I tested in the am and PM same water column and got a very high alk level in PM at 12.2 and am at 8.3. Ill keep an eye out on my Alk

 

[User1]

Maybe someone else can chime in but if you are seeing a white film or cloudy water doesn't that mean you are dosing too much in a short period of time? At least that is what I have seen when I tried NoPox. Also what I seem to have read.

 

[ReefersDelite]

Maybe someone else can chime in but if you are seeing a white film or cloudy water doesn't that mean you are dosing too much in a short period of time? At least that is what I have seen when I tried NoPox. Also what I seem to have read.

I'd honestly love to hear from someone on that. NOPOX did keep my levels low.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Maybe someone else can chime in but if you are seeing a white film or cloudy water doesn't that mean you are dosing too much in a short period of time? At least that is what I have seen when I tried NoPox. Also what I seem to have read.

I don't think this is necessarily true. When you're dosing an organic carbon source, you're growing bacteria. The bacterial mass isn't invisible and it has to grow somewhere.

 

[User1]

I don't think this is necessarily true. When you're dosing an organic carbon source, you're growing bacteria. The bacterial mass isn't invisible and it has to grow somewhere.

Well, I believe we are saying the same thing. If dosing too much, or a single overdoes, it will grow and be visible. Thus the white cloudy water or on sides of tank comment. Do a search on white film dosing nopox. Plenty of results. That is all I meant by it.

You are correct, and I agree on growing bacteria and it has to grow somewhere. Similar threads say the same thing, Randy, etc. Nopox has pretty clear directions based on reef type and measurement of nitrates. Probably why some folks suggest following directions but start at 1/4 or 1/2 initial recommended dose and slowly ramp up while testing and result analysis.

 

[Dan_P]

I am in the process of studying carbon dosing with calcium acetate, vinegar mixed with solid kalwasser to pH~10 in my fish only system, I have evidence that alkalinity consumption decreases as the dose of acetate increases to the point where alkalinity started to increase. This occurred at about 0.5 mL/gal daily dose, where I am suspending further dose increases until I confirm the alkalinity observation. It is difficult to reconcile this observation with nitrogen metabolism. While it is unlikely that acetate is accumulating, I don’t have a means of ruling it out either. I might be missing something elementary.

I have also started running small scale experiments with calcium acetate dosing and have consistently observed alkalinity increases. Still trying to figure out what is going on. If I don’t get frustrated with these long duration experiments, I will also study ethanol and glucose dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Well, I believe we are saying the same thing. If dosing too much, or a single overdoes, it will grow and be visible. Thus the white cloudy water or on sides of tank comment. Do a search on white film dosing nopox. Plenty of results. That is all I meant by it.

You are correct, and I agree on growing bacteria and it has to grow somewhere. Similar threads say the same thing, Randy, etc. Nopox has pretty clear directions based on reef type and measurement of nitrates. Probably why some folks suggest following directions but start at 1/4 or 1/2 initial recommended dose and slowly ramp up while testing and result analysis.

Bacteria must grow somewhere, and sometimes it is visible and sometimes not, regardless of amount dosed. But certainly, growing less makes it less likely to be visible, and an aquarist may decide for themselves that they do not like the visible bacteria, so for that reason, if no other, the dose is too high or a different product might be tried.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I am in the process of studying carbon dosing with calcium acetate, vinegar mixed with solid kalwasser to pH~10 in my fish only system, I have evidence that alkalinity consumption decreases as the dose of acetate increases to the point where alkalinity started to increase. This occurred at about 0.5 mL/gal daily dose, where I am suspending further dose increases until I confirm the alkalinity observation. It is difficult to reconcile this observation with nitrogen metabolism. While it is unlikely that acetate is accumulating, I don’t have a means of ruling it out either. I might be missing something elementary.

I have also started running small scale experiments with calcium acetate dosing and have consistently observed alkalinity increases. Still trying to figure out what is going on. If I don’t get frustrated with these long duration experiments, I will also study ethanol and glucose dosing.

You may fully understand this, but calcium acetate (or any acetate salt) is a clear and simple source of alkalinity so will reduce the demand for other sources of alkalinity.

Some companies sell calcium acetate as a combo calcium and alkalinity addition product. For example, Salifert "All In One".

I discuss it here:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION
http://www.reefedition.com/the-many-methods-for-supplementing-calcium-and-alkalinity/

from it:

One-part balanced additive systems: Calcium Acetate

Calcium acetate is a product that has gotten relatively little publicity despite its apparent ease of use and the commercial availability to aquarists. In some ways it is similar to the combination of limewater and vinegar. When dissolved in water (fresh or salt), you have calcium ions and acetate ions. The acetate is rapidly metabolized by tank organisms to form bicarbonate, carbon dioxide, and water:

CH3CO2– (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3– + CO2 + H2O

This equation suggests that pH of such tanks may stay near the low end of normal, because of the excess carbon dioxide, but the practical experience of people using calcium acetate suggests that this is not a big concern.

Calcium acetate will also facilitate the growth of bacteria and the reduction of nutrients in systems, similar to that with folks dosing vinegar or vodka for that purpose. It will also facilitate conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas (N2) in anoxic regions of live sand and rock by providing the carbon source necessary for the process. The equation below shows the process that could take place:

5 CH3CO2– (acetate) + 8 NO3– → 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH– + H2O

One of the sources of calcium acetate available to aquarists is Salifert’s All in One (a product that also contains some strontium, amino acids, and some trace elements). It is a liquid product that can be poured directly into a tank with no immediate concerns about pH. The current version of their commercial product is 250,000-mg/L calcium acetate, so it contains the equivalent of 3,160 meq/L of alkalinity. This product sells in the US for about $45/L. Consequently, it costs about $14 per thousand meq/L of alkalinity. That price makes it very expensive for an aquarium with a large demand for calcium and alkalinity, but the zero equipment cost (unless you automate it with a dosing pump) makes it attractive for small aquaria, especially nano-reef tanks.

I have no information on the purity of the material, or the exact nature of the “trace elements” in it. Everything in the bottle will be delivered to the tank. It poses no unusual safety concerns. The upper limit to how much calcium and alkalinity can be supplied to a tank in this fashion depends on two factors. If the metabolism of acetate is rapid and the dose is very high, oxygen might be depleted. If the conversion is slow then acetate can build up in the tank (not itself a significant concern except perhaps at very high levels where it might confound an alkalinity test). Habib Sekha of Salifert has indicated that using the doses recommended on the bottle will not lead to either of these issues being problematic.

Overdosing is not expected to be an unusual problem, but if one makes significant additions in this fashion, the alkalinity will take time to show up completely in the tank because the acetate takes time to be metabolized. Consequently, I’d wait a day after adding it to measure alkalinity. Calcium measurement won’t be similarly impacted. Tank salinity will not increase over time using calcium acetate.

 

[Dan_P]

CH3CO2– (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3– + CO2 + H2O

Thanks Randy for your reply. This demonstrates one can read a lot but fail to appreciate the connections

The implication of the above equation is that dosing acetic acid is the production of only CO2, i.e., it will only replace the alkalinity consumed upon dosing. Correct?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks Randy for your reply. This demonstrates one can read a lot but fail to appreciate the connections

The implication of the above equation is that dosing acetic acid is the production of only CO2, i.e., it will only replace the alkalinity consumed upon dosing. Correct?

Yes. Dosing acetic acid initially depletes alk and then when it is consumed and metabolized, you get exactly the same the alk back. Net effect is energy and CO2 for organisms.

Dosing acetate doesn't deplete any alkalinity when added, and then you get alk when it is metabolized (just the second part of the process in the sentence above).

 

[Dan_P]

Yes. Dosing acetic acid initially depletes alk and then when it is consumed and metabolized, you get exactly the same the alk back. Net effect is energy and CO2 for organisms.

Dosing acetate doesn't deplete any alkalinity when added, and then you get alk when it is metabolized (just the second part of the process in the sentence above).

Thank you Randy. I will now perform my mass balances with greater confidence. Dan

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thank you Randy. I will now perform my mass balances with greater confidence. Dan

)

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing.

 

[User1]

Bacteria must grow somewhere, and sometimes it is visible and sometimes not, regardless of amount dosed. But certainly, growing less makes it less likely to be visible, and an aquarist may decide for themselves that they do not like the visible bacteria, so for that reason, if no other, the dose is too high or a different product might be tried.

Makes sense, thanks. As a NoPox user for little under a month I'm not sure if I'm a fan yet or not. I wanted to try it to lower my nitrate which was 5o+ according to the Red Sea color chart but so far I don't think it is doing much of anything. Granted I started with 1/4 their dose recommendation and slowly moved it up over two weeks to their recommended amount but it is still between 20 and 50 on the color chart. At least the testing color or numbers are consistent I guess.

At first I thought higher nitrates may be affecting my Xenia and Hammer corals but maybe it is something else since it is lower and they are still receding. So all in all it isn't having the desired effect I wanted and not paying attention to nitrates before everything was growing like weeds.

 

[Dan_P]

)

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing.

As a thank you gift for your help, above is a plot of the alkalinity consumption (average daily consumption) for my system (more negative, more consumption) for each step increase in acetate dosing. The step durations were weeks long, with weekly measurements of alkalinity (Hanna Checker). The initial value, no dosing, was just the average of several months before dosing started. I didn’t really wake up and appreciate what was going on until the alkalinity consumption rate went positive.

Enjoy!

 

[Smarkow]

But if nitrate was being lowered a lot, that boosts alk.

Is the above statement due to this? 5 CH3CO2– (acetate) + 8 NO3– → 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH– + H2O

Thanks all, really interesting to me as I was dosing both nitrate (Red Sea reliably reads zero) and vinegar in an effort to get phosphates lower (Hanna ULR reads 5-15).
Ca 440, Alk 10, pH 8.1-8.3 depending on the time, and happy with my tank

 

[ReefersDelite]

HELP****
I tested my water mix and the alk was 8 and ca was 430. That's great because that what it mixes at. Now i go and test water in my tank before the WC and alk is 9.3 and CA is steady at 430. I'm not dosing ANY alk what so ever and im daily dosing CA to keep it steady so here's my question. Why am I not using any alk at all in 7 days? NO3 is still high but I'm still upping my vinegar dose so that will come down and my PO4 is .002ish. Sps are Browning out too.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

As a thank you gift for your help, above is a plot of the alkalinity consumption (average daily consumption) for my system (more negative, more consumption) for each step increase in acetate dosing. The step durations were weeks long, with weekly measurements of alkalinity (Hanna Checker). The initial value, no dosing, was just the average of several months before dosing started. I didn’t really wake up and appreciate what was going on until the alkalinity consumption rate went positive.

Enjoy!

Thanks!