Vinegar Dosing SPS Tank

[Jimbo]

I understand that the growth of the algae means that I have the nutrients to support it ( I've ruled magic out btw ) I have a shallow sand bed that I vacuum every other week during water change. It is not overly dirty. I use a shop vac and clean out my sump during my other weekly water change. I do not have a refugium where detritus could build up. I use a turkey baster on my rocks a couple of times a week.

I cannot figure out where the nutrients are coming from. I do use a 3/4" PVC base that supports my rock work , I have cut a couple of sections out to reaquascape, can water get in there and cause an issue?

So, is it not possible for algae to grow in a system that has low nutrients? I'm not saying that I have a ULNS but, are you saying that if you have a low nutrient system nuisance algae absolutely will not grow?

 

[mcarroll]

I'm saying that if you've done all that but still not found the problem, then you have to keep looking. With all that shop-vac'ing and turkey-basting, what do you usually get for your efforts in terms of detritus?

Another possible source of nutrients: maybe the RODI system that's producing your water isn't doing as well as it could be?

As for algae growth, typically once your tank is far enough out of balance you'll stop seeing growth of the usual green algae types and start seeing a preponderance of cyanobacteria. Some cyano's can use gaseous nitrogen for their fix, so don't always depend on organic sources like nitrate.

Also, judging from the pics I've seen, the algae growth isn't really all that bad. This could mean you're looking for a smaller problem than you think...maybe some detritus hiding in a corner or within/under the rock work that you could've missed while looking for something bigger?

Also, define "not overly dirty". If you churn up the sand and see anything come out of it that isn't pure, bright calcium-white, then you've found your issue. (And consider going bare-bottom if you find the sand to be the home of the issue.)

 

[d_adler]

no i currently have a sps dominant tank and have used hydrogen peroxide in a few instances at that rate with no side effects what so ever. it will do nothing to your sps.

 

[Jimbo]

I'm saying that if you've done all that but still not found the problem, then you have to keep looking. With all that shop-vac'ing and turkey-basting, what do you usually get for your efforts in terms of detritus?

Another possible source of nutrients: maybe the RODI system that's producing your water isn't doing as well as it could be?

As for algae growth, typically once your tank is far enough out of balance you'll stop seeing growth of the usual green algae types and start seeing a preponderance of cyanobacteria. Some cyano's can use gaseous nitrogen for their fix, so don't always depend on organic sources like nitrate.

Also, judging from the pics I've seen, the algae growth isn't really all that bad. This could mean you're looking for a smaller problem than you think...maybe some detritus hiding in a corner or within/under the rockies work that you could've missed while looking for something bigger?

Also, define "not overly dirty". If you churn up the sand and see anything come out of it that isn't pure, bright calcium-white, then you've found your issue. (And consider going bare-bottom if you find the sand to be the home of the issue.)

All the "shop-vac'ing and turkey basting" hasn't got me a whole heck of a lot, a slight dusting when I baste the rocks. I did find a decent amount of detritus in the return pump chamber that I must have missed, I also cleaned the return pump. Hopefully that will help.

When I vacuum the sandbed it appears to be a tannish color, definitely not " bright calcium white" I did remove some sand so I'm close to bare bottom in the back of the tank up to 1" in the front.

I have checked the RO unit and I'm getting 0 TDS out of the DI. Checked with an in line TDS meter and a handheld.

I did start vinegar dosing and I'm on my second week, I'm up to 10 ml a day. The hair algae has not grown any but is still there, seems it may be declining. However, I have seen a couple small spots of cyano on the rocks, looks to be growing on top of the hair algae... Is the vinegar dosing the cause of this? You mentioned that cyano may come after the hair algae. What exactly do you mean about my tank being out of balance?

Should I stop the vinegar dosing in your opinion? Other than the cyano I have not had any other negative affects. All the SPS look great, good color and growth still.

 

[mcarroll]

Tannish = very fine detritus = bad

Definitely get out as close to 100% as you can....and keep after it weekly or better.

Personally I'd suck out all the remaining sand and eliminate the hiding spot - be done with it for good.

I'd go easy on the vinegar (or quit) until the detritus has been gone for a while. See how the tank does on its own.

 

[Jimbo]

Do you think the cyano is related to the vinegar dosing or the nutrient issue that's going on? It's almost as if it is feeding off the hair algae as its growing right on it. Really not crazy about the bare-bottom look and I have a Yellow Coris Wrass and some Nassarius snails which need some sand. I'll have to consider removing as it may very well be the source of my problem. Thanks for your time mcarrol.

I've read a lot on carbon dosing and some people suggest to continue dosing and the cyano will eventually go away . Not sure what to do, wish I had posted in the Reef Chemistry forum.........

 

[mcarroll]

Could be due to both. Again, til the detritus issue is resolved, I'm not sure I'd complicate things with carbon dosing. There'll be time for that later, and at minimum you know it's not currently helping. $0.02

Also, if you're willing to remove the sand, do it. By far the easiest AND cheapest solution. Replace it with new sand at your discretion. Bare isn't a requirement, it's just easier.

If you replace it, do consider what is allowing/causing the detritus to settle into the sand like that.

 

[Jimbo]

Not really convinced the sandbed is the problem. I'm not arguing with you LOL , maybe you're right. Here's a pic it's really shallow and pretty clean, the Conch(behind the Frogspawn) can't even bury completely. Wouldn't some detritus be in almost any sandbed? It does appear the hair algae may be dying off, so the vinegar is possibly working, although if I have to choose I'd rather have hair algae rather than Cyano

 

[mcarroll]

Fwiw, I do have a good selection of carbon / vinegar / vinegar+kalk articles in my sticky over in Chemistry Section just in case there are any you haven't already seen. Some of the more general links on the microbial food web are related and might also be interesting.

 

[Jimbo]

P.S. The colors on my Coral, especially the SPS, has never been better. I think previously I was starving the Coral, now it appears I have too many nutrients.....I guess it's a fine line. Wish I could find the middle- ground!

 

[Jimbo]

Fwiw, I do have a good selection of carbon / vinegar / vinegar+kalk articles in my sticky over in Chemistry Section just in case there are any you haven't already seen. Some of the more general links on the microbial food web are related and might also be interesting.

OK, thanks for your time

 

[mcarroll]

No amount of detritus such as you've found is really acceptable when you're already trying to undo a situation.

Plus as I alluded, it's presence is also the indicator that it's accumulating. It's going to get worse.

Detritus is job #1!!

 

[mcarroll]

Not kidding about the detritus issue.

But having said that, the sand bed wasn't the only deposit you found.

If you think what was in the return chamber could account for your issue, maybe just play it by ear for a while and take your time deciding what to do with the sand bed.

But don't discount that "tan stuff"...I've seen that be the sole cause of an algae issue more than once. Once vacuumed out, the problem algae went with it.

New sand is cheap.

 

[Jimbo]

I'll keep that in mind, I might just start removing sand a little by little when I do water changes. I may as well stop the vinegar and see if I can get the issue under control using water changes and GFO. No sense in adding another variable to the situation, like you said, plenty of time for that later.

 

[mcarroll]

Gradually is the way to go!

It would be funny if the GFO turned out to be unneeded too.

 

[mguili1947]

I also dose peroxide 1 milper 10 gallons and my tank has cleared up of alge.My sps looks great,zoas will sometime close for a little while.Two other members of my club have now done the same and said their water has never been clearer also

 

[mcarroll]

BTW, what shop vac do you use on your tank and how do you like it?

 

[Jimbo]

BTW, what shop vac do you use on your tank and how do you like it?

I got one of those cheapo Bucket top wet/dry vacs from Lowes. Think it was $20. Fits perfectly on an old Instant Ocean salt bucket and I only use it on the tank. Really comes in handy for the sump and when the Overflow needs a good cleaning. Highly recommended.

 

[Jimbo]

I also dose peroxide 1 milper 10 gallons and my tank has cleared up of alge.My sps looks great,zoas will sometime close for a little while.Two other members of my club have now done the same and said their water has never been clearer also

Really afraid to dose peroxide into the tank. I did spray some on a rock that I removed from the tank and it did help remove algae but when I put the rock back in the tank I noticed that it killed the Coralline algae too. Pretty sure SPS would not like it. I know it would be way less concentrated in the tank but I'm not willing to chance it, as the coral are doing great. Thanks for the suggestion though, glad it worked for you

 

[mcarroll]

I've seen those bucket-vacs before....might have to pick one up. I've been doing sump-cleaning using a regular siphon hose....not efficient to siphon at ground level!! As a result it's never gotten done very often. :thumb:

On an unrelated note, isn't an 8-bulb T5 fixture a ***-load of light for an 18" tank?
(Not a T5 junkie, but my rule of thumb was always that 4-tubes would be fine for that depth...and I've seen 6-tubes run a 36" deep reef...fwiw.)

I'm guessing you did that big of a fixture for the coverage since 30x30 is a lot of surface area?

Have you ever measured your lux at the water surface?
Lux meters are dirt cheap - $15 for a good handheld...or free if your phone camera will work well with a lux meter app...worth trying. And you should get a lux meter if you don't already have one (or something better).

I bet (without seeing your lux measurement) that this may also be a small part of your algae issue. There isn't a lot of concrete data that I could find in a quick search, but this seems to indicate that if your light is 12" from the water, you could be beaming your tank with over 1200 PAR. Maybe up to 2600 PAR if your light is only 6" from the water or lower. If I'm close to correct in these guesses then you could definitely get away with much less light in terms of keeping your corals happy.

Lemme know your thoughts on this.