Vodka vs Vinegar vs No3Po4x

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Is calcium hydroxide kalk? And when I get to zero on my nitrates is that when I would stop and continue dosing that amount?

Kalkwasser is a Germam word for the english word limewater. Either are made by dissolving calcium oxide or calcium hydroxide in fresh water. In this case, you add the solids of either form into the straight vinegar and dose that liquid.

In terms of dosing, when nitrate is declining you begin reducing the dose until you get to a maintenance dose.

 

[john.m.cole3]

Is calcium hydroxide kalk? And when I get to zero on my nitrates is that when I would stop and continue dosing that amount?

Once you see a decrease in nitrates, hold that dose. Hold that dose until you reach your desired number, then cut your dose in half to maintain your desired NO3 level. That's what I've read before. Now I'm taking the plunge! Today was day 2 of NOPOX.

 

[Roberto CRC]

Imbalance of what?

I've not seen convincing evidence that NOPOX and other forms of organic carbon dosing (such as DIY sources) are different in any important way.

I imbalance in the levels of NO3 and PO4?

This I think, for having to change the type of carbon source and not have an exact dose to be used.

 

[Roberto CRC]

In my case the NO3 and PO4 are controlled, but as I mentioned Nopox want to change to vinegar for accessibility issue.

Doses should I use, I rely on the predefined table and get to use the maximum and then begin to fall or not?

 

[Vaughn17]

FWIW, my main reason to dose organic carbon was not to reduce nutrients, but to create food for filter feeders.

I don't have extremely high nutrients, but I wanted to see how the corals would react to elevated bacteria levels so I added a bit of sugar a few weeks ago. The sps exhibited full PE and other corals, such as my war coral that normal doesn't feed in the daytime, also showed a feeding response.

 

[Waterjockey]

In my case the NO3 and PO4 are controlled, but as I mentioned Nopox want to change to vinegar for accessibility issue.

Doses should I use, I rely on the predefined table and get to use the maximum and then begin to fall or not?

In my case the NO3 and PO4 are controlled, but as I mentioned Nopox want to change to vinegar for accessibility issue.

Doses should I use, I rely on the predefined table and get to use the maximum and then begin to fall or not?

HI Robert. Earlier in the thread, you said you were dosing nopox and wanted to switch to vinegar. Take whatever amount of nopox you were dosing each day, and dose 4x that in vinegar each day as a starting point. Monitor your nitrate levels and adjust from there.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks, now at lunch go to the supermarket to see what products meeting.

How long do I have to keep that mix or after a while I can only use vinegar or vodka alone?

It is fine to taper off to just one of the components if you want. I'd make that swap over a week or two. You can always go back to a mixture if that seems to work better for you.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Did you prefer to use macro algae to control nutrients?

In my system I used skimming, vinegar dosing, macroalgae, GAC, water changes, and GFO to control nutrients.

 

[dragon99]

Better add a ATS and sulfer denitrator just to round it out. And some mangroves.

 

[ksed]

I don't want to derail this thread. Please move my post if needed.

Thanks Randy,
Although I have been told that you need a large amounts of macroalgae for it to be effective at removing nutrients eg 25 % of the system volume. Yes this depend on the amount of bioload as well.
Instead with carbon dosing the real estate required is far less. Perhaps carbon dosing is more efficient?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't want to derail this thread. Please move my post if needed.

Thanks Randy,
Although I have been told that you need a large amounts of macroalgae for it to be effective at removing nutrients eg 25 % of the system volume. Yes this depend on the amount of bioload as well.
Instead with carbon dosing the real estate required is far less. Perhaps carbon dosing is more efficient?

That was exactly why I transitioned from all macroalgae to macroalgae plus organic carbon. Lower costs (less light), less space needed, etc.

Aside from the benefits of bacteria for filter feeders, and their more rapid growth, I cannot clearly say I saw a big benefit to the tank.

 

[ksed]

Thanks Randy

 

[cobast]

Some people on this topic have said they've had nitrates up around 60 for months on end. I'm surprised you've let it go on that high for so long. Whenever my nitrates are high my corals start suffering as an indication things are wrong. (my test kit was giving false readings) I did several large volume water changes to get my nitrates down quickly - within several days, and then started dosing with Ultimate Aquacare Nitrate Remover to bring/ keep the nitrates down and just adjusting the dose to deal with spikes. Things have been quite stable now for ages

 

[Scott.h]

@Randy Holmes-Farley you've made mention of dosing large amounts of vinegar at times. How much were you using for your needs in your tank? Your tank was something like 120 gallons correct? What was your formula for offsetting the ph drop with kalk or calcium hydroxide in the vinegar when you dosed heavily? Also do you see a disadvantage to vinegar or vodka having any long term build up issues with adding some form of contaminants with no water changes? Aside from you mentioning the vodka/ cyano issue, vodka doesn't hurt ph correct? So if cyano isn't an issue, vodka would seem superior to vinegar, as vinegar hurts ph, correct?

The method of my madness is that I'm rebuilding the sump of my highest nutrient tank over to triton. I'm doubling my sump size and tripling my fuge size. Prior, a 17% weekly water change and 4ml a day of vodka has kept my n03/po4 at 60/.08 without gfo. So im just wondering how hard I can push 100 gallons of water to keep nutrients in a realistic place (40ish?) without killing my ph, or one form of the carbon dosing elements adding contaminates long term without changing any water.

As usual I appreciate your insight!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Randy Holmes-Farley you've made mention of dosing large amounts of vinegar at times. How much were you using for your needs in your tank? Your tank was something like 120 gallons correct? What was your formula for offsetting the ph drop with kalk or calcium hydroxide in the vinegar when you dosed heavily? Also do you see a disadvantage to vinegar or vodka having any long term build up issues with adding some form of contaminants with no water changes? Aside from you mentioning the vodka/ cyano issue, vodka doesn't hurt ph correct? So if cyano isn't an issue, vodka would seem superior to vinegar, as vinegar hurts ph, correct?

The method of my madness is that I'm rebuilding the sump of my highest nutrient tank over to triton. I'm doubling my sump size and tripling my fuge size. Prior, a 17% weekly water change and 4ml a day of vodka has kept my n03/po4 at 60/.08 without gfo. So im just wondering how hard I can push 100 gallons of water to keep nutrients in a realistic place (40ish?) without killing my ph, or one form of the carbon dosing elements adding contaminates long term without changing any water.

As usual I appreciate your insight!

If spread out, the effect on pH of vinegar is about the same as vodka (both produce 2 CO2 molecules per organic molecule added). Vinegar just has a bigger drop initially while vodka has more later as it is metabolized. Neither will leave any long term residual chemicals to accumulate.

I had a 120 gallon display and a couple hundred gallons more in refugia and sump. The refugia were 3 x 44 gallon brute cans 3/4 full of rock with macroalgae on top. Sump was 2 x 44 gallon Brute cans.

I daily dosed 410 mL per day based on BRS doser rates, which may have underestimated the dose. The 410 mL per day was too much, and 75-200 ml per day seemed more appropriate.

When I was manual dosing once a day, I used vinegar saturated with calcium hydroxide so there was no pH drop immediately. Later, I used dosin pumps and spread out the dose over the daylight hours. I was using limewater ATO at the same time.

 

[Scott.h]

If spread out, the effect on pH of vinegar is about the same as vodka (both produce 2 CO2 molecules per organic molecule added). Vinegar just has a bigger drop initially while vodka has more later as it is metabolized. Neither will leave any long term residual chemicals to accumulate.

I had a 120 gallon display and a couple hundred gallons more in refugia and sump. The refugia were 3 x 44 gallon brute cans 3/4 full of rock with macroalgae on top. Sump was 2 x 44 gallon Brute cans.

I daily dosed 410 mL per day based on BRS doser rates, which may have underestimated the dose. The 410 mL per day was too much, and 75-200 ml per day seemed more appropriate.

When I was manual dosing once a day, I used vinegar saturated with calcium hydroxide so there was no pH drop immediately. Later, I used dosin pumps and spread out the dose over the daylight hours. I was using limewater ATO at the same time.

Wow, way to utilize the trash cans. Although those things are pricy for trash cans too at 40 bucks a pop. Knowing your sump volume now I'm questioning if I'm going big enough yet with an equal size sump to my tank size. It's pretty rare to hear of the display being smaller in comparison to the sump/fuge, but I believe it's a good safeguard. I'm curious as to how you had all those cans plumbed together.

Well the volume you were dosing puts my mind at ease with trying to dose 20-40 ml a day lol. I didn't know you could dose that amount, even spread out through the day. So until I get a doser for that system, do you think a 1:1 ratio for vinegar with calcium hydroxide would be an appropriate offset? And can the two be mixed together without chemical reaction or some form of precipitation?

I appreciate the response!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Wow, way to utilize the trash cans. Although those things are pricy for trash cans too at 40 bucks a pop. Knowing your sump volume now I'm questioning if I'm going big enough yet with an equal size sump to my tank size. It's pretty rare to hear of the display being smaller in comparison to the sump/fuge, but I believe it's a good safeguard. I'm curious as to how you had all those cans plumbed together.

Well the volume you were dosing puts my mind at ease with trying to dose 20-40 ml a day lol. I didn't know you could dose that amount, even spread out through the day. So until I get a doser for that system, do you think a 1:1 ratio for vinegar with calcium hydroxide would be an appropriate offset? And can the two be mixed together without chemical reaction or some form of precipitation?

I appreciate the response!

For manual dosing, add enough calcium hydroxide into the vinegar until there is substantial excess on the bottom, let it settle, and use the clear liquid. You can reuse the solids in a second batch.