Water Level and Salinity Confusion - AIO

JDWolverine

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I need help solving a couple mysteries in my three month old waterbox 35.2. I think they’re related but not sure. Neither of these things were a problem, then suddenly they were.

1. my salinity was stable at 1.025 then suddenly jumped to 1.028 and isn’t wanting to go back down. I have a tunze osmolator nano and dont understand how this is even possible. The sensor is in my return pump chamber. I hear it run frequently. I use the hanna salinity tester and just checked the calibration again.

2. I always take the same amount of water out of my tank for changes, say 5G. For months, I always added an identical 5G bucket of fresh saltwater back in, which brought the level in my display back up to the line where it always is. Suddenly I now need to add an extra several gallons or the water never reaches the line even when you the pumps get turned back on. I just removed 3g and had to put 4 back in, which surely didn’t help my salinity.

I have to assume this has something to do with the water levels in the back chambers, but I don’t know what the problem is, why it wasn’t a problem before and is now, or how to fix it.

please help before I salt my whole tank to death.
 
following... i am having a similar issue although it hovers at 1.028-1.029....
 
Do you dose products for Alk/Ca/Mag etc? Even though your tank is on the smaller side, dosing can result in higher salinity due to the salt content of many dosing products.

Do you keep a water mark on your return chamber for a 'normal level' ?
Get your tank back to your desired 1.025 and then make a mark. Something as simple as masking/scotch tape with a pen mark is good enough. This is where you want your water from now on. Now you can manage your ATO.

Is it possible you added Saltwater to your tank, instead of RO/RODI water, to top it off?

Do you check the Sg of your newly mixed water? Is it at the 1.025 you mentioned you want?

Is it possible you added Saltwater to your ATO holding tank?

Just some thoughts and nothing against you !!
 
2. I always take the same amount of water out of my tank for changes, say 5G. For months, I always added an identical 5G bucket of fresh saltwater back in, which brought the level in my display back up to the line where it always is. Suddenly I now need to add an extra several gallons or the water never reaches the line even when you the pumps get turned back on. I just removed 3g and had to put 4 back in, which surely didn’t help my salinity.

Always add back the same amount of salt water that you removed, and if it needs more, use fresh water for that. (assumes you are not loosing salt water onto the floor or down a drain somehow)

If you are confident in the measurement, I'd look to lower it by taking out a half gallon or so a day and replacing it with fresh.
 
I just removed 3g and had to put 4 back in, which surely didn’t help my salinity.
If you removed 3g salted water and replaced with 4g salted water it should have any effect on your salinity - You should be replacing the water with identical salinity water anyway on a water change - You are using fresh NON salted water in your ATO arent you?


Have you cleaned your return pump lately?

One of the only reasons ive found the back chambers to lower in AIO tanks is when the pump suddenly starts pulling more water from the back. This results in the back chamber water level going down quicker.

It wouldnt account for your salinity going up though,it would go down with the ATO putting more NON ssalted water in to account for it - but worth a mention.

Id be wanting to recheck the calibration on that Hanna checker with a reference solution if it was me - Ive had a few and some were iffy at best. I cant see how the salinity could raise 0.003 quickly - It could lower for sure with an ATO but not raise that quick.

Then id be checking your salted water in the tank and what you use to do water changes to make sure they match.
 
Something is very wrong with this statement:

"Suddenly I now need to add an extra several gallons or the water never reaches the line even when you the pumps get turned back on. I just removed 3g and had to put 4 back in, which surely didn’t help my salinity."

This...isn't possible. It violates the laws of physics. If you take out 5 gallons of water, and you put back fresh salt water relatively soon (as in you haven't evaporated away days/gallons worth of water), then you'll need to put back 5 gallons of water.

Now as to what could be going on.

Here's a thought: in my aio, there's not a lot of room. Sometimes on it's own, or maybe because I was fiddling with it, or maybe because the pump is getting cruddy - sometimes, my return pump won't pump at full/normal speed. Either it's clogged up, or touching the wall and impeding flow. This type of thing will most definitely affect your water levels in the back chambers - which is where I suspect you have your ato sensors. Since the ATO maintains a water level, and not total gallons in the tank, this can lead to quite a bit of fluctuation in the total water in the system. You have to consider this type of action when doing water changes.

Further explanation - this is what happens in my tank: The pump has a habit of sucking against the wall and I don't notice the much reduced flow for a few days. This has the effect of "turning the pump off" which RAISES the water levels in the back chambers, and LOWERS the water level in the main display. Since it raises the level in the back chamber, the ATO stops adding top off water, and I've noticed 1/2 gallon or more of evaporation out of the tank. On a small AIO, that amount of water swings the salinity!

Now let's further play this out in some scenarios. Scenario 1: I could remove 5 gallons of water, replace it, but in the process jiggle my pump so that it starts pumping correctly again. The water level will drop significantly and I"m standing there going "I need to add more water than I took out." Which type of water do I add? If I add more salt water - I'll raise the salinity. If I add fresh water, I'll lower the salinity. I'm screwed because I removed saltwater that WASN'T at 35ppm or 1.026. Get it? If I repeated this process every week, I'll move my salinity quite a bit in a short amount of time. EZ to do on a nano tank - and a mistake I've made myself.

So scenario 2 - the RIGHT way to do it: Check your equipment before you take any water out! You can't tell if everything is good by just looking at the water level - the ATO will maintain that level no matter what - but there could still be more or less water in your system overall! In my case, I make sure the pump is pumping correctly, if it was obstructed, the water level in the back will drop once it gets moving again, the ATO will top it off with fresh water, and I wait a while to do any water changes to let the salinity swing settle down. EVEN BETTER is to check the salinity of the water you're taking out first. If it's elevated or low, you should address that problem first. THEN you do the water change, and physics says you'll need to add in the exact same amount you took out. If you mixed your salt correctly, and your salinity meter/refractometer/whatever is working, then everything will be ducky!

One last note: sometimes you have to fiddle with your ato sensor. If you move it up or down, that'll affect your salinity in a small tank (because it'll either add a bunch of fresh water lowering overall salinity, or it won't - raising overall salinity). If you're fiddling with things - then it's best to measure your salinty, get it correct in the tank and get your water levels correct - then put your sensor right at the water level.

The only other things I can think of are 1) is your salinity checking device working? 2) is your calibration fluid good? 3) are you sure? Have you checked it against something else? 4) are you removing water at an excessive rate - like you don't have a skimmer that's overflowing and you empty it 5 times a day right? 5) are you dosing anything? Some things that you dose raise salinity and you'll need to correct for that. On a nano tank all for reef is nice because you don't need to dose a lot, and the high cost is palatable and it won't swing your salinity.

So ya - something like that is going on. My money is on your water levels in the back chamber are fluctuating, which is swinging your salinity due to ATO action, and you're removing water that isn't at 35ppm. Since your salinity is going UP, I'd suspect you're adding back in more saltwater which will have the effect of raising your salinity over time.

Hope this helps.
 
One of the only reasons ive found the back chambers to lower in AIO tanks is when the pump suddenly starts pulling more water from the back. This results in the back chamber water level going down quicker.

It wouldnt account for your salinity going up though,it would go down with the ATO putting more NON ssalted water in to account for it - but worth a mention.
This is what I'm talking about. In your example, if her pump is plugged, then she removes water, then she jiggles it around and it starts pumping fast again - then it'll look like "she needs to add more water" If she's got her ATO turned off (like I do when I do a water change) and adds in extra saltwater - then boom - she's going to raise her salinity every single week.

This sounds like a stupid thing - but in an AIO it's easy to swing those back chamber levels around quite a bit, and subsequently mess up your tank salinity. Nanos are exacting ;)
 
I did the same thing when I first got into salt water tanks. Water is evaporating. You have to put new RODI fresh waster to top off the tank THEN do a water change.
Otherwise your salinity will creep up over every change.
 
I am using fresh RODI in my ATO to replace all evaporation. Evaporation has nothing to do with it, as this is a peovlem that only occurs between when I take dirty water out and put fresh saltwater in 10 seconds later. What must be happening is that that extra gallon or two is going into the back chambers and not evening out with the display, the question is why and how I fix it. Normally if the back is a little high you turn the pump on and it evens out, currently turning the pump on does raise the display but not enough. Am i just not giving it enough time to catch up anymore? It’s weird.

While trying to work this out yesterday we did notice that the carpet has compressed since installing the tank 3 months ago and it was leaning forward slightly, so we corrected that. My husband thinks that must be the problem and now it’s solved but I’m not sure? That seems to me like when we refill the tank it’d look artificially full in front and it doesn’t look full at all, its 2-4in below the fill line. I don’t see how being tipped forward could cause that problem. The back chamber did seem more full than it needs to be so we removed some of that water (which is probably the excess water we needed to add originally to get the display side up to level except now the display is level and it’s in the back chambers. Why could this be?)

i haven’t checked my return pump lately but will do so. The flow coming out of it seems normal and it’s only a couple months old, but obviously I’m missing something and anything is worth checking lol.
 
I am using fresh RODI in my ATO to replace all evaporation. Evaporation has nothing to do with it, as this is a peovlem that only occurs between when I take dirty water out and put fresh saltwater in 10 seconds later. What must be happening is that that extra gallon or two is going into the back chambers and not evening out with the display, the question is why and how I fix it. Normally if the back is a little high you turn the pump on and it evens out, currently turning the pump on does raise the display but not enough. Am i just not giving it enough time to catch up anymore? It’s weird.

While trying to work this out yesterday we did notice that the carpet has compressed since installing the tank 3 months ago and it was leaning forward slightly, so we corrected that. My husband thinks that must be the problem and now it’s solved but I’m not sure? That seems to me like when we refill the tank it’d look artificially full in front and it doesn’t look full at all, its 2-4in below the fill line. I don’t see how being tipped forward could cause that problem. The back chamber did seem more full than it needs to be so we removed some of that water (which is probably the excess water we needed to add originally to get the display side up to level except now the display is level and it’s in the back chambers. Why could this be?)

i haven’t checked my return pump lately but will do so. The flow coming out of it seems normal and it’s only a couple months old, but obviously I’m missing something and anything is worth checking lol.
The issue may be with the socks in the intake. As the socks clog they will cause the water level in the display to rise and the water level on the return chamber to go down. The opposite will happen just after replacing the socks with clean ones. Because AIO tanks have very small chambers, the water level in the return chamber is very sensitive to flow restrictions anywhere on the water circulation path.
 
I am using fresh RODI in my ATO to replace all evaporation. Evaporation has nothing to do with it, as this is a peovlem that only occurs between when I take dirty water out and put fresh saltwater in 10 seconds later. What must be happening is that that extra gallon or two is going into the back chambers and not evening out with the display, the question is why and how I fix it. Normally if the back is a little high you turn the pump on and it evens out, currently turning the pump on does raise the display but not enough. Am i just not giving it enough time to catch up anymore? It’s weird.

While trying to work this out yesterday we did notice that the carpet has compressed since installing the tank 3 months ago and it was leaning forward slightly, so we corrected that. My husband thinks that must be the problem and now it’s solved but I’m not sure? That seems to me like when we refill the tank it’d look artificially full in front and it doesn’t look full at all, its 2-4in below the fill line. I don’t see how being tipped forward could cause that problem. The back chamber did seem more full than it needs to be so we removed some of that water (which is probably the excess water we needed to add originally to get the display side up to level except now the display is level and it’s in the back chambers. Why could this be?)

i haven’t checked my return pump lately but will do so. The flow coming out of it seems normal and it’s only a couple months old, but obviously I’m missing something and anything is worth checking lol.
Did you fix this?
 

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