water levels

[melonheadorion]

Nice way to treat people trying to help you.

you havent said a single thing to help. "Sounds like you need an ATO" "once you have a mechanism for maintaining your desired water level, report back to us". this is the whole purpose of my thread; to setup an ATO thats going to work with this setup.

so, for those in the back.....

im trying to setup an ATO. my pump puts water in the tank faster than the drain can get it to the sump. although slowly, it still causes the ATO to constantly run, all day at about 5 minutes in between. so, obviously, doing this is going to cause salinity to drop, and add more water than what the system is setup for. the only way to combat that is slowing down the return, which then runs me into an issue of overfilling the sump to defeat the setup i have on it.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

you havent said a single thing to help. "Sounds like you need an ATO" "once you have a mechanism for maintaining your desired water level, report back to us". this is the whole purpose of my thread; to setup an ATO thats going to work with this setup.

so, for those in the back.....

im trying to setup an ATO. my pump puts water in the tank faster than the drain can get it to the sump. although slowly, it still causes the ATO to constantly run, all day at about 5 minutes in between. so, obviously, doing this is going to cause salinity to drop, and add more water than what the system is setup for. the only way to combat that is slowing down the return, which then runs me into an issue of overfilling the sump to defeat the setup i have on it.

Geez! Take a chill pill!
You need a different attitude if you're going to be asking for help... You did not explain things well in your original post.
Sounds like you need to change your "sump setup" to allow you to slow down the return. No other way around it unless you want to plump a Herbie or Bean drain.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

in the end, the tank and sump return or drain water at different rates, and i havent been able to get a setup that i can depend on, for the purpose of a proper ATO, or perhaps im doing it wrong.

This made absolutely no sense, hence the difficulty...

 

[melonheadorion]

Geez! Take a chill pill!
You need a different attitude if you're going to be asking for help... You did not explain things well in your original post.
Sounds like you need to change your "sump setup" to allow you to slow down the return. No other way around it unless you want to plump a Herbie or Bean drain.

my attitude is the way it is because you come in here, giving the advice that im already aware of, working on, and then double down on it. . i can slow down both the drain and the return. i can speed them both up, but the amount of adjustment is so minute that i dont have the ability for a proper settting to make it perfectly equal.

 

[melonheadorion]

and because i know that this may not have been understood at the beginning, if i run the drain faster than the return, i run into an issue where the slots in the overflow create bubbles. bubbles in a siphon, you can imagine is bad news. with these bubbles, it continually brings air into the siphon. to combat that, i run the water higher in the tank so that those slots arent creating air bubbles when water flows through. so, perhaps this adds to what i am trying to say. i cant run the return faster than the drain, for obvious reason, and i cant run the drain faster than the return because of hte siphon. the two have to match otherwise there is a problem that is created.

and this brings me back to the start. since the DT will have water evaporate and eventually cause the water to dip lower, creating bubbles that are caused by the slots in the overflow....

 

[All_talk]

I think I get what's going on here (I looked at you build thread). You are trying to back up the overflow so that the level in the weir box (inside the tank), stays high, near the slots?

Unfortunately, this type of overflow is not designed to work that way, it is meant to be run wide open, so that the water going out is equal to what the return pump puts in. I understand that running wide open is allowing air into the siphon and will cause a break, but this type of siphon is designed to have a small pump that draws the air out, this small pump should be running all the time, not just to start the siphon. If you are still getting to much air in the siphon then I suspect that your overflow is too large for your pump. What is the rating of the overflow and the return pump?

You also mentioned you are trying to make this single drain system run silent, it won't. A single drain, when set up correctly and safely will not be silent, it will always have more capacity than the pump and will splash down the pipe and ingest air.

 

[melonheadorion]

I think I get what's going on here (I looked at you build thread). You are trying to back up the overflow so that the level in the weir box (inside the tank), stays high, near the slots?

Unfortunately, this type of overflow is not designed to work that way, it is meant to be run wide open, so that the water going out is equal to what the return pump puts in. I understand that running wide open is allowing air into the siphon and will cause a break, but this type of siphon is designed to have a small pump that draws the air out, this small pump should be running all the time, not just to start the siphon. If you are still getting to much air in the siphon then I suspect that your overflow is too large for your pump. What is the rating of the overflow and the return pump?

You also mentioned you are trying to make this single drain system run silent, it won't. A single drain, when set up correctly and safely will not be silent, it will always have more capacity than the pump and will splash down the pipe and ingest air.

youre fairly close. as you know, the water going out is equal to what the return pump puts in. this is the gist of what ive been mentioning. the return pump can return more water than this overflow can drain. in fact, i have it retruning at just over 50% capacity right now. the issue that i run in to specifically is that i cant get them to match perfectly. it either drains a tiny bit slower, or fills a tiny bit faster, so one of them is going to be out of sync with the other, albeit very little, but cant be matched perfect. i cant have it return to the DT faster, because then the pump will run dry. i can only hope to return water slower, but then i run a risk of having issues with the siphon due to just the nature of how the slots in the wier operate.
even if i run it wide open, i still run into the same issue. i will not be able to match the drain with the return.
and yes, there is the option of running a small pump on it. if i keep it the way it is, i dont have to include a pump, and havent had a needed a pump for the entirety that ive had this setup. a main problem that you run in to with running a pump on it continually is that those pumps have very short lives, and i could run it on a timer for mere seconds a day, but at the moment, with where i have it, i dont even have a need for a pump if i allow the tank water to be higher within those slots.

im not "trying" to make it silent. it already is, and has been since i completed it. it makes absolutely no sound at this time. ive also have created a device within the overflow that reduces the splashing in the pipe, which helps keep it silent as well

 

[melonheadorion]

I think I get what's going on here (I looked at you build thread). You are trying to back up the overflow so that the level in the weir box (inside the tank), stays high, near the slots?

Unfortunately, this type of overflow is not designed to work that way, it is meant to be run wide open, so that the water going out is equal to what the return pump puts in. I understand that running wide open is allowing air into the siphon and will cause a break, but this type of siphon is designed to have a small pump that draws the air out, this small pump should be running all the time, not just to start the siphon. If you are still getting to much air in the siphon then I suspect that your overflow is too large for your pump. What is the rating of the overflow and the return pump?

You also mentioned you are trying to make this single drain system run silent, it won't. A single drain, when set up correctly and safely will not be silent, it will always have more capacity than the pump and will splash down the pipe and ingest air.

this is how quiet this setup is. you will hear the skimmer more than anything else

 

[All_talk]

I understand that your setup is silent and not introducing bubbles into the siphon, but it also doesn't balance. And set up like it is it will not balance, it just cant be adjusted precisely enough. As you have said, you can get close, but never balanced. And even if you could get it just right for a moment in time, a slight bit of evaporation, or a slight change in sump level from the ATO coming on would set it off. The system will only self regulate when it has more drain capacity than what the pump is putting out.

 

[melonheadorion]

I understand that your setup is silent and not introducing bubbles into the siphon, but it also doesn't balance. And set up like it is it will not balance, it just cant be adjusted precisely enough. As you have said, you can get close, but never balanced. And even if you could get it just right for a moment in time, a slight bit of evaporation, or a slight change in sump level from the ATO coming on would set it off. The system will only self regulate when it has more drain capacity than what the pump is putting out.

not necessarily that. what it comes down to is that there is basically an extra 3/4 to an inch of water in the tank than what it would be normally with a wier. generally, the wier should start draining as soon as water gets to the lowest part of those slots. if the return is running at a slower pace than the drain, this would ultimately keep the water level in the DT the same, and wouldnt have to worry about evap other than the sump. this is kinda where the problem comes in with what most are saying. if i keep it this low, they way that it is physically working introduces air to the siphon, which can obviously be rectified with a pump, but it also creates a ton of noise through the entire setup, which is just not ideal. i would rather find a work around to that, rather than doing the method that most will say "you have to do"

the ATO doesnt necessarily cause any issues making a slight change. its more along the lines of, if the return pump returns more than is draining into the sump, it sets off the ATO to make up for that extra water that is going out of the sump. so much so, that when i attempted it earlier, it was adding water way to frequent. i checked that it was taking about 1/8 to 1/4 inch of water after about 15 minutes, from teh sump. so, if anything, i have to lean toward the side of making return water slower than what can drain, without making it so the 3/4 inch of water buffer i have, doesnt go away.

i mentioned earlier that ive got an apex coming in soon. im going to brainstorm to see if there is a way i can keep that extra water in the DT, but maybe setup a reverse ATO so that maybe i can add sump water to the DT to make up for DT evap, or figure out something i can program on the apex to force it to equalize.

 

[All_talk]

I think I get what you are tying to do, its not the "right" way, but I too have miss-used equipment to make it do what I wanted. Your setup will be more complicated and probably less reliable, but if you can run a silent single drain, maybe its worth it (to you).

There was another thread recently with a similar idea using a controller and variable return pump (I'll link if I can find it). The basic idea was to have a high and low sensor in the overflow box (traditionally drilled through the tank bottom type) and have the low sensor turn the pump up a little, the high sensor would turn it down. There might be a idea in that.

Now that we are past the "right" way conversation I will mention this... I have run a balanced siphon system, its not impossible, but it has significant sacrifices that would be intolerable to modern reefers. Back in the early 1990s on my first saltwater tank, I had a single siphon tube made out of PVC pipe with a ball valve to regulate, there was a weir box with long slots inside the tank and no outer box. If the pump stopped or anything else went wrong you lost the siphon. The system balanced (beyond fussy adjustment of the valve), with the rising and lowering of the tank and sump levels. If the pump overfed, the rising tank level would allow the siphon to pull more water due to reduced negative head pressure. At the same time the level in the sump would go lower increasing the head pressure on the pump reducing flow. In a pump underfeed scenario the opposite would happen. The fluctuations in the tank and sump were several inches to create enough effect to balance the flow and it always oscillated as it ran.

If it were me and safe, silent operation was the goal, I would swap out the single drain overflow for a two or three drain version. But then again I do love a challenge.

Side note: I have sketched up a concentric dual drain for a single drain hole, but have yet to build one.

Gary

 

[melonheadorion]

I think I get what you are tying to do, its not the "right" way, but I too have miss-used equipment to make it do what I wanted. Your setup will be more complicated and probably less reliable, but if you can run a silent single drain, maybe its worth it (to you).

There was another thread recently with a similar idea using a controller and variable return pump (I'll link if I can find it). The basic idea was to have a high and low sensor in the overflow box (traditionally drilled through the tank bottom type) and have the low sensor turn the pump up a little, the high sensor would turn it down. There might be a idea in that.

Now that we are past the "right" way conversation I will mention this... I have run a balanced siphon system, its not impossible, but it has significant sacrifices that would be intolerable to modern reefers. Back in the early 1990s on my first saltwater tank, I had a single siphon tube made out of PVC pipe with a ball valve to regulate, there was a weir box with long slots inside the tank and no outer box. If the pump stopped or anything else went wrong you lost the siphon. The system balanced (beyond fussy adjustment of the valve), with the rising and lowering of the tank and sump levels. If the pump overfed, the rising tank level would allow the siphon to pull more water due to reduced negative head pressure. At the same time the level in the sump would go lower increasing the head pressure on the pump reducing flow. In a pump underfeed scenario the opposite would happen. The fluctuations in the tank and sump were several inches to create enough effect to balance the flow and it always oscillated as it ran.

If it were me and safe, silent operation was the goal, I would swap out the single drain overflow for a two or three drain version. But then again I do love a challenge.

Side note: I have sketched up a concentric dual drain for a single drain hole, but have yet to build one.

Gary

ive thought of a dual drain setup, but then im still in the same boat as before. the issue that i have isnt the ability to drain or fill the tank, its just getting it to a point where it either matches identically, or getting it to not create water bubbles when its going through the wier with the proper setup. and by proper setup/use, im saying that the proper way would be to have the water level right at the bottom of the slots in the wier so that it drains as soon as it hits an open spot in the wier, and then running the return as close to the same draining capacity as the overflow.
also to mention, so that it makes sense why i even mention that, is that the water bubbles, other than creating a possibility of a complete siphon break, when the flow slows down through the wier, its a turbulant waterfall in through the wier slots, thus causing bubbles. those bubbles do sometimes flow under the baffle, and into the siphon. ive never had a complete siphon break, but the more air that builds there, slows the siphon, and ultimately slows the drain. this starts the loud water sounds because of water bubbles, and water flow noise, causes burps int he drain, etc.

i think part of the issue is that the water surface turbulance might be part of the issue, so i might have to play with that a bit to see if it changes anything with flow into the wier.

is it safe to say that the drain capacity should equal to or be higher than what feeds to the tank?

 

[All_talk]

Yes, in a traditional setup the siphon/drain capacity exceeds the pump output.

So, noise aside, if you run the drain wide open, the turbulence/bubbles in the weir box cause the siphon to accumulate air and slow/stop? Does that change with higher or lower flow rates from the pump?

I have not run a siphon like yours so I don't know if this behavior is normal, but suspect it might be. I think your type of siphon may require the small pump to keep the air evacuated. Maybe others with this type can weigh in? What is the manufactures recommendation, small pump or no?

As far as the difference between the water level in the tank and in the level in the weir box, it is proportional to flow. The higher the flow the higher the difference, if there is no difference there is no flow.

 

[melonheadorion]

Yes, in a traditional setup the siphon/drain capacity exceeds the pump output.

So, noise aside, if you run the drain wide open, the turbulence/bubbles in the weir box cause the siphon to accumulate air and slow/stop? Does that change with higher or lower flow rates from the pump?

I have not run a siphon like yours so I don't know if this behavior is normal, but suspect it might be. I think your type of siphon may require the small pump to keep the air evacuated. Maybe others with this type can weigh in? What is the manufactures recommendation, small pump or no?

As far as the difference between the water level in the tank and in the level in the weir box, it is proportional to flow. The higher the flow the higher the difference, if there is no difference there is no flow.

ultimately, the flow from the overflow will effect the return, albeit just a little.with the overflow slowing, it ultimately is a case where the amount in the return chamber will be lower than it would normally be. so, it doesnt affect the rate in which its returned, just the level in that return, which then has the possibility of affecting an ATO because the change in the water level.
the CPR overflow original design did not come with a pump. many people purchased them after the fact. the overwhelming outcome of the pump was that it works, of course, but at a disadvantage of having to replace that pump often. the multiple complaints that you will find is that the pump gets clogged and stops working over time.
ultimately, the villain behind everythign, is the siphon. however, i cannot use any other kind of setup without buying a new tank, and im just not made of money, so thats not an option, and im not going to drill this tank to install a good overflow setup. the new cpr setups that you can buy, does come with a pump. ther other option is an eshopp variety, but i dont know if they work any better than the CPR version.
noise aside, the turbulance caused by doing it the "correct way" is the main issue. the only way to combat the "correct way" would be to use a pump, but im not a rich guy, so i dont want to throw money at pump after pump, just to keep a constant siphon, versus what i can do without extra money by keeping the water level high.
these are my two options, as i see it right now in my eyes. run the level high, and use two ATO (one for tank, and one for sump), or use one ATO, run a pump for the siphon, replace that every so often if/when it fails,

 

[All_talk]

I see your situation, I don't think many people have done what you are trying, you probably wont find a lot of advice on the subject. And I certainly understand working with a limited budget.

The siphon on my tank is similar to the Eshoppe style with the round siphon tubes, its has been completely reliable, it has never lost the siphon or failed to restart after pump shutdown in the 12 years I have used it (knock on wood). I have found the trick to keeping the air out is velocity, the water moves through the tubes fast enough to push bubbles all the way through. I currently run two tubes with my return pump maxed out, but in the past when I tapped off some return flow for a reactor, I ran only one tube to keep the velocity in the tube high enough to push the bubbles through.