Water too (NaCl) salty

mcarroll · Mar 8, 2015

My 100 gallon system has slowly crept up from 1.025 s.g. to 1.027 s.g. by way of lots of Randy's Recipe.

If I wanted to restore ionic balance using a salt-free salt like Kalibrate or Tropic Marin's third part, can someone tell me how to calculate the amount to add? Is this possible?

(Neither salt actually appears to be for sale anywhere, so for now this is a hypothetical question.)

Thanks in advance!

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 9, 2015

I don't know anything about how suitable these products are, but you need to remove about 7.5% of the tank volume to drop the salinity, so adding enough of these products to make that volume should add back what is lost.

That assumes the two part added nothing but NaCl, and that is likely not correct.

mcarroll · Mar 9, 2015

Thanks!

I'm not locked into this as a solution, but haven't thought of any other way than water changes to fix this, which are out of the question due to time constraints. (Can I borrow your Reef Filler?

)

I'm curious how you calculated the 7.5%?

Thanks again!

-Logzor · Mar 9, 2015

You would just need to remove some of your aquarium water and replace it with RO/DI water. This is all that I do when mine creeps up as a result of two-part dosing.

Sometimes I mix my water change water with extra low specific gravity.

Not sure I understand why adding a salt-free product would be the solution. Wouldn't that add a bunch of other stuff you don't really need?

Unless the water is so thrown off that it needs to be "re-booted" but I think a normal water change would be best.

mcarroll · Mar 9, 2015

In the past I have, but it seems pretty far off right now. Last time I tried to test water, It seemed that NaCl was interfering with the test...all and Ca tested off the scale...which can't be true.

So hoping to approach the prob more directly.

We'll see though...just researching at this point.

-Logzor · Mar 9, 2015

It sounds like you're overdosing Calcium, if it's off the charts. How often have you been checking it? The happened to me once. I had to stop dosing for awhile and swap out some of my aquarium water to RO/DI to lower the salinity.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 9, 2015

mcarroll said:
Thanks! I'm not locked into this as a solution, but haven't thought of any other way than water changes to fix this, which are out of the question due to time constraints. (Can I borrow your Reef Filler? )

I'm curious how you calculated the 7.5%?

Thanks again!

To go from 1.027 to 1.025

25/27 = 0.926

So 0.926 x 27 =25

1- 0.926 = 7.4%

Make sense?

mcarroll · Mar 9, 2015

Yes!

I neglected to drop the "1.0" off the front of the s.g. Number when I tried to figure it.

Thanks again!

mcarroll · Mar 9, 2015

-Logzor said:
It sounds like you're overdosing Calcium, if it's off the charts. How often have you been checking it? The happened to me once. I had to stop dosing for awhile and swap out some of my aquarium water to RO/DI to lower the salinity.

I've been holding dosing at 150mL/day of recipe 2 for over a year on a system that's still pretty packed with fairly fast-growing stony corals, so if anything I should be under-dosing.

I test about quarterly on average - the last round if testing was the first where I got results like that.

Also one correction: it was Mg and Ca that were tested...Mg with Salifert and Ca with Hach (for a change). Both failed to get to the final color change.

I'll probably do nothing until the next test since everyone in the tank is doing well. So far I consider the NaCl issue a technicality...no side-effects, no problem, after all.

I am curious about a non-water-change based solution though, and I'm not trying to push the envelope on any of this.

If the next round (where alk will be tested as usual) gives similar results, I'll have to reconsider the options - maybe see if I can locate either of the salts I know about that could work.

mcarroll · Mar 9, 2015

I never ran into anyone dosing at that rate using kalk+vinegar, but this makes me want to consider starting up vinegar again (already run kalk via Tunze reactor) to see if I could practically support 100% of the tank's demand that way. Caused mold growth in my ato reservoir in the past, so working that out is my main concern. Was a pain.

It would avoid this NaCl buildup though!

-Logzor · Mar 9, 2015

mcarroll said:
I've been holding dosing at 150mL/day of recipe 2 for over a year on a system that's still pretty packed with fairly fast-growing stony corals, so if anything I should be under-dosing.

I test about quarterly on average - the last round if testing was the first where I got results like that.

Also one correction: it was Mg and Ca that were tested...Mg with Salifert and Ca with Hach (for a change). Both failed to get to the final color change.

I'll probably do nothing until the next test since everyone in the tank is doing well. So far I consider the NaCl issue a technicality...no side-effects, no problem, after all.

I am curious about a non-water-change based solution though, and I'm not trying to push the envelope on any of this.

If the next round (where alk will be tested as usual) gives similar results, I'll have to reconsider the options - maybe see if I can locate either of the salts I know about that could work.

Your magnesium and calcium are off the charts and that is probably whats driving your sg to 1.027. How did you come to the conclusion that high NaCl is the issue?

I've had the NaCl problem as a result of dosing two-part, where my calcium and magnesium were relatively low but my salinity was still high. This told me that magnesium nor calcium was driving my salinity up. The solution was to replace the water. In your case it sounds like the opposite story.

I don't understand a non-water change solution. Can you elaborate? How else do you get the excess NaCl out without either exporting it or consuming it?

mcarroll · Mar 9, 2015

NaCl accumulation is a natural side effect of several years of intensive two-part dosing. You have to expect it. I just haven't been on my historically-regular water change regime in the last couple of years, so lately it hasn't been dealt with even a little bit.

So I know there is NaCl accumulation. (And like Randy pointed out, probably some other things too...I hope minor.) I'm not 100% certain about interference with the test kits, but I can't offer another explanation as to how Ca and Mg would suddenly go off the charts after being so stable for so long. E.g. there were no mysterious happenings, no accidental doses, etc.

Well, it's not a traditional water change that I want to do, but technically it's still changing out some old water for some new.

The salts I mentioned lack NaCl, but contain all the other "important" elements. So, I'm theoretically going to raise the rest of the elements up to the NaCl's level, rather than trying to chip away at the problem by lowering the NaCl level using salt mix that, itself, contains a very high percentage of NaCl. Make sense?

I know nobody has done this (not too many folks have tanks this long AND have this set of circumstances...holler if I'm wrong!), so it'll be considered experimental if I do it.

(If this seems like a completely foreign idea, the concepts I'm thinking about are pretty well described in Tropic Marin's youtube vid on Balling Method. I'm not interested at the moment in the Balling Method per se....just stealing an idea. Brightwell makes a salt that's ostensibly of similar composition: sea salt without the NaCl component.)

GreatWhiteTang · Mar 9, 2015

Take out water add.. Add just Rodi water. Small amounts daily and test.. Repeat until desired results appear. Making this so complicated just to lower salinity lol

mcarroll · Mar 9, 2015

That's more or less the traditional way - true!

-Logzor · Mar 9, 2015

mcarroll said:
NaCl accumulation is a natural side effect of several years of intensive two-part dosing. You have to expect it. I just haven't been on my historically-regular water change regime in the last couple of years, so lately it hasn't been dealt with even a little bit.

So I know there is NaCl accumulation. (And like Randy pointed out, probably some other things too...I hope minor.) I'm not 100% certain about interference with the test kits, but I can't offer another explanation as to how Ca and Mg would suddenly go off the charts after being so stable for so long. E.g. there were no mysterious happenings, no accidental doses, etc.

Well, it's not a traditional water change that I want to do, but technically it's still changing out some old water for some new.

The salts I mentioned lack NaCl, but contain all the other "important" elements. So, I'm theoretically going to raise the rest of the elements up to the NaCl's level, rather than trying to chip away at the problem by lowering the NaCl level using salt mix that, itself, contains a very high percentage of NaCl. Make sense?

I know nobody has done this (not too many folks have tanks this long AND have this set of circumstances...holler if I'm wrong!), so it'll be considered experimental if I do it.

(If this seems like a completely foreign idea, the concepts I'm thinking about are pretty well described in Tropic Marin's youtube vid on Balling Method. I'm not interested at the moment in the Balling Method per se....just stealing an idea. Brightwell makes a salt that's ostensibly of similar composition: sea salt without the NaCl component.)

That makes a lot more sense, thanks for clarifying. Let us know how you end up handling the issue.

I would be curious to see what your test kits say if you replace a portion your water with RO/DI to lower salinity.

mcarroll · Mar 9, 2015

(Actually it appears that a few online places carry Balling nowadays and Champion carries the Bwell product now...not in small quantities though.)

One other thing this has me (re)considering is saving up for a ReefFiller....(only half-kidding earlier!)...expensive, but by all accounts a once-in-a-lifetime purchase and it does automate the last big task associated with keeping my tank.

mcarroll · Mar 9, 2015

-Logzor said:
That makes a lot more sense, thanks for clarifying. Let us know how you end up handling the issue.

I would be curious to see what your test kits say if you replace a portion your water with RO/DI to lower salinity.

No problem!

I intend to follow up here with the next round's test results (which may be a little while)....we'll see!

UK_Pete · Mar 9, 2015

Don't forget if you just add RO water to make the salinity 35 ppm, you will deplete the other salts in comparison - so you end up with water with less than NSW levels of potassium, sulfate, etc. I think thats what the OP is saying, how to balance them out again right? Simplest way would seem to be large WCs but if you are running with no WCs and want to dose 2 part heavily, maybe Glenns DSR techniques would be of interest, as I think thats what he does (IE test potassium etc levels and dose them).

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 9, 2015

UK_Pete said:
Don't forget if you just add RO water to make the salinity 35 ppm, you will deplete the other salts in comparison - so you end up with water with less than NSW levels of potassium, sulfate, etc. I think thats what the OP is saying, how to balance them out again right? Simplest way would seem to be large WCs but if you are running with no WCs and want to dose 2 part heavily, maybe Glenns DSR techniques would be of interest, as I think thats what he does (IE test potassium etc levels and dose them).

Yes, although with a perfect two part, all of those other ions are added in the right ratios so that simple removal and replacement with RO/DI results in everything matching NSW.

Even my DIY two part does that for sulfate, and if you use Dowflake, does it for potassium by happy coincidence.