Waterbox Marine X 60.2 Build

[Savage Henry]

Welcome to R2R! AquaMedic pumps are hard to get in the US so I don't have direct knowledge of them. I do know that several people installed the 1.3 in Waterbox Peninsula 15s and they liked them. They were very quiet but I believe that they were also a little too powerful for the small 15-gallon Waterbox. Since it is a DC pump I would actually suggest the 2.3 for the extra overhead it will provide. This should also have enough extra head to easily power a random flow generator as well. DC pumps tend to run best at below 100%. I also prefer 4-5 times turnover for my return.

Thanks Tharbin,

I don’t know much about DC pumps. I wonder for a pump rated at say 2000 lph what flow rate the pump would have at the max head height. Also, I wonder if I get a pump much more powerful than I need by tuning down the flow rate, does this mean it uses much less electricity and do these pumps have a minimum flow rate/electricity consumption. I need to do some research.

 

[Savage Henry]

Well, I got some more info. The 1200 lph is meant to be at the 1.5 metre height. So, I am thinking I could get away with the 1200 lph pump as my system should only have about 150 litres of water and I want 4x turn over as I am going to be running an oversized skimmer.

I am taking your comments into account Tharbin and considering whether I might run over items in the sump.

If I do go for the larger pump, it has a 25mm outlet, whereas the smaller pump has a 20mm outlet. The hose that comes with the tank I think is meant for a 20mm outlet. So, with the larger pump I’d have to use a reducer to go down from 25mm to 20mm to fit it into the system.

 

[tharbin]

Well, I got some more info. The 1200 lph is meant to be at the 1.5 metre height. So, I am thinking I could get away with the 1200 lph pump as my system should only have about 150 litres of water and I want 4x turn over as I am going to be running an oversized skimmer.

I am taking your comments into account Tharbin and considering whether I might run over items in the sump.

If I do go for the larger pump, it has a 25mm outlet, whereas the smaller pump has a 20mm outlet. The hose that comes with the tank I think is meant for a 20mm outlet. So, with the larger pump I’d have to use a reducer to go down from 25mm to 20mm to fit it into the system.

If the 1200 rating is at height than the 1.3 is probably plenty as long as you don't end up adding a manifold for reactors/ATS/etc. I use a reducer on my SDC 6.0 with no ill effects.

DC pumps do have a minimum speed. When they are on at even a few percent they are actually at their minimum which is often stated in the specs (like 530/2000). The low number is its minimum and the larger is 100%. Every DC pump I've used was quietest somewhere between 10or so (which is almost always really minimum) and around 80% rated output.

 

[kevgib67]

Welcome Glenn, glad you are here!

 

[Savage Henry]

I worked out the bare tank and sump will have a volume of about 158L at 25cm sump depth and 152L at 22cm sump depth.

So, I am planning on aquascaping with three large pieces of rock (est. 10L) + 10L gravel + Seachem media (3L). So the volume of water is going to be 135L and 129L, depending on sump water depth.

So, at 4 times turnover, that’s about 540 lph and at 5 times turnover, that’s about 675 lph. So, I think I should be able to get away with the 1200 lph pump, which I’ll likely run at 50%.

I may also add further rock so the volume of water might be even less.

I am looking at using a Tunze 9410 skimmer that has a flow rate of 900 lph. So, the skimmer should thoroughly skim and oxygenate the water (I will be using lids in the display and sump to reduce evaporation).

Any other thoughts would be welcomed.

 

[Savage Henry]

I am also likely to have a heaters in both the display and in the sump, so heating shouldn’t be a problem.

 

[Savage Henry]

I’m also going to load the sump with Cheato and another type of macro algae I already have.

I’m a low tech hobbyist and am not likely to use any flow reactors. I may not even use an ato, but instead top up every few days. I don’t normally lose much water due to evaporation because of the lids.

 

[Savage Henry]

I’m wondering how long the impellers last in these pumps? I thought they would probably last longer than the rest of the pump? And ideas or experiences with this pump or similar pumps?

 

[PharmrJohn]

Sicce Syncra brand DC return pumps are highly regarded. I love mine. The app is always working and an ancillary benefit is that it monitors water temp as well. Check them out to see what size matches your tank size. I would go on the higher end so that you can keep the pump running at around 70-80%.

I'm in agreement here. When I launch I'll have two return pumps (Syncra 6.0s) for a 155g. It used to be that one would aim for 10x GPH. Not so much anymore. Now it's between 2 and 5x GPH. There are calculators online to help with flow reduction. You also need to account for bends in the piping. But the Syncra DC models are very highy regarded. And they're quiet. I'd seriously consider two returns in case one goes down due to clogging or mechanical failure (if you have the funds and room).

So Greetings and Welcome to our collective obssession!!!!

 

[Fish Think Pink]

Hi all,

I’ve been into saltwater aquaria for about 13 years now and about to set up a new aquarium. I am hoping to set up a journal for this build.

At this point, I am looking at a return pump for the sump. I am looking at the Aqua Medic DC Runner pumps as I was told they are quiet.

Just wondering what size I should get?

I expect the actual volume of water is going to be about 150 litres. I was told it’s good to have around a 4 times turn over as the skimmer needs to do its thing and any higher turnover is a waste.

The head height is 1.4 metres.

So, I was thinking the 1.3 size pump would do the job as it does 1200 litres/hour.

Any opinions on the brand or output?

Cheers,
Glenn

Hi Glenn and Welcome! I'm Lisa. Glad you found this site.

My Texas club had guest speaker who did a great job covering return pump flow, so even though he works for SICCE, the math works for any brand:

 

[Savage Henry]

Thanks very much Lisa, I watched the video and I’m still doing my own research. I am definitely leaning a thing or two. There’s also some discrepancies out there though as one person told me that, for the aqua medic dc runner that is rated at 1200 lph and had a maximum head height of 1.5 metres, the flow rate at 1.5 metres is 1200 lph. Another person I just spoke to said it is only 1200 lph at the pump outlet.

My thoughts at the moment are that even if the flow rate is about 800 lph at 1.4 metres (the height needed for my tank and the piping has one “t” intersection at the top), then that would be fine for my tank as I am calculating a working volume of 135 litres of water and I would like a 4x turnover.

 

[Savage Henry]

Basically, I am aiming for a flow rate of 540 lph at the return outlets into my display tank.

 

[tharbin]

Basically, I am aiming for a flow rate of 540 lph at the return outlets into my display tank.

Henry,

When I saw that you need a 1.4 meter head height I thought you might be pushing it a little using the 1.3 so I went looking for a flow graph for the 1.3 as most pumps fall off fairly quickly as they approach max. head height. For the 1.3 it appears to be at around 600-650 at 1.4 meters and that is before any restrictions like a T or Elbow.

 

[tharbin]

Basically, I am aiming for a flow rate of 540 lph at the return outlets into my display tank.

Henry,

Here is an article at Bulk Reef Supply that may help. It gives some rules of thumb for fittings and horizontal runs along with the basics of sizing the pump.

If your plumbing is 1.4 meters and that does not include the T fitting then you need to add an additional .3 meters to compensate for the T and maybe more if you use a restrictive outflow like a funnel, RFG or flare end.

Return Pump Sizing

 

[Savage Henry]

Thanks so much everyone!

Tharbin, that information is GOLD and I hope others in my situation can read your comments (and the others above) to help them.

I’ve continued my research, but that flow chart is awesome Tharbin. I was looking at the flow charts for other pumps to get an idea.

Sone other points that might be considered:

Loss in flow is caused by total head loss.
Head loss is made up of a number of contributions that you can add together to get your total head loss.

Head loss from the height difference between the pump and the display tank outlet (i.e. the pipe outlet that pours the water back into the display tank)

Some sites suggests you also add in a head loss value for the loss contributed to the height the water has to be raised. That is one foot head loss for each foot of height. For me, that’s about 4.66 feet.

Other sites suggest the height should be calculated using the height between the top of your sumps water surface and the outlet of the sump return pipe in the display tank (see, https://www.simplicityaquatics.com/...timate-the-head-pressure-on-your-return-pump/)

In my case that distance is about 3.5 feet.

I am more inclined to favour the latter calculation (using sump water level to outlet in display tank height).

Head loss from the tubing

Some sites indicate you factor in the tube length as a separate contribution from the change in height factor.

Some sites suggest calculating the head loss from horizontal tubing separate to that for vertical tubing (see the calculator below).

One site indicated that you multiple your return pipe length (that includes rigid pipe and flexible hose) by a factor to get a head loss value.

For 0.75 inch pipe the factor is 0.15, so my head loss is 0.5 foot (0.15 x 3.5 foot).

I have minimal horizontal tubing.

Head loss from fittings
Some sites say to add one foot head for each corner or tee fitting.

I have the t fitting which equates to one foot head load. I am not taking into account the nossle things I will be using as they could come off if needed.

My total head loss
I calculate my head loss as being:
Vertical distance = 3.5 feet
Tubing = 0.5 feet
T joint fitting = 1 feet
Total head loss = 5 feet

Online calculator
For a site that provides a calculator, see https://pentairaes.com/pump-calculator. Be warned, the calculator uses gpm.

This calculator calculates my head loss to be 3.62 metres.

Calculating water volume
Since we are considering moving water, I calculate my requirement based on the volume of free water, not the total capacity of the aquarium (i.e. not the volume of water in the otherwise empty tank).


Calculating the turn over rate
Some sites suggest calculating the turn over taken into account the free water in both you display and the sump.

Others suggest only taking into account the display tank volume.

I have rethought this and think it’s better to think of the volume in the display.

My circumstances

I am inclined to think my total head loss would be closer to 4.0 - 4.5 feet. I’d say 5 feet for safety.

I would like a four times turnover. Considering the free water in the display would be about 115 litres, this amounts to 460 lph = 122 gph.

I think I could get away with the 1200 lph = 317 gph pump. But, I will try for a 2000 lph pump instead.

However, I anticipate other things that may affect head loss as well as flow. Probably things I haven’t experienced yet.

I have set up the aquarium with fresh water as a test and I am running an old Eheim 12122 (1500-3000 lph with max 3.0 head). I am running on the lowest flow. I have looked at the water streams coming out into the display tank and would be happy with that flow or even half that (i.e. if only one of the pipes had flow).

Thanks again for everyone’s help. Especially big thank you to Tharbin.

I hope the above helps newbies. There are some differences of opinion in there, but at the end of the day it should help someone not buy a pump that’s too small. My preference is for a larger DC pump, but you also have to make sure it fits in your sump!

Also, from my own experience I prefer a sump that has a gentle flow, with a wonderland of bugs and critters that only come out in the dark - I highly recommend newbies buy a red light and look at both their display tanks and sumps in the dark. It’s even better if you turn the water flow off entirely in your display and see what things venture out after a few minutes in the dark without flow.

 

[Savage Henry]

I’ve actually just ordered a pump rated at 3000 lph. I also ordered a spare impeller. Though the 2000 lph pump would have done the job very well, the 3000 was on special. Also, I am hoping that if I run it at say 30% or lower, it should last a long time.

I will now need to think about reducing the outlet size of one inch to suit my tubing that is 0.75 inch.

 

[Savage Henry]

The 2000 also has the one inch outlet size and this was another factor that made me think, just go for the 3000 as I can throttle it down. I am hoping to run a minimum flow of about 800, so more than I original thought, but I think I’ll be happy with that. It was good to have had the 1500-3000 lph Eheim on hand to run and see what I thought. Must say the Eheim on full was way too much flow and made me think I wouldn’t need a wave maker in the display tank.

 

[InactionJackson]

Hi all,

I’ve been into saltwater aquaria for about 13 years now and about to set up a new aquarium. I am hoping to set up a journal for this build.

At this point, I am looking at a return pump for the sump. I am looking at the Aqua Medic DC Runner pumps as I was told they are quiet.

Just wondering what size I should get?

I expect the actual volume of water is going to be about 150 litres. I was told it’s good to have around a 4 times turn over as the skimmer needs to do its thing and any higher turnover is a waste.

The head height is 1.4 metres.

So, I was thinking the 1.3 size pump would do the job as it does 1200 litres/hour.

Any opinions on the brand or output?

Cheers,
Glenn

I have this tank, ran a Sine DCP 3500. super quiet And ran a Deltec 600i skimmer, super quiet

 

[tharbin]

Thanks so much everyone!

Tharbin, that information is GOLD and I hope others in my situation can read your comments (and the others above) to help them.

I’ve continued my research, but that flow chart is awesome Tharbin. I was looking at the flow charts for other pumps to get an idea.

Sone other points that might be considered:

Loss in flow is caused by total head loss.
Head loss is made up of a number of contributions that you can add together to get your total head loss.

Head loss from the height difference between the pump and the display tank outlet (i.e. the pipe outlet that pours the water back into the display tank)

Some sites suggests you also add in a head loss value for the loss contributed to the height the water has to be raised. That is one foot head loss for each foot of height. For me, that’s about 4.66 feet.

Other sites suggest the height should be calculated using the height between the top of your sumps water surface and the outlet of the sump return pipe in the display tank (see, https://www.simplicityaquatics.com/...timate-the-head-pressure-on-your-return-pump/)

In my case that distance is about 3.5 feet.

I am more inclined to favour the latter calculation (using sump water level to outlet in display tank height).

Head loss from the tubing

Some sites indicate you factor in the tube length as a separate contribution from the change in height factor.

Some sites suggest calculating the head loss from horizontal tubing separate to that for vertical tubing (see the calculator below).

One site indicated that you multiple your return pipe length (that includes rigid pipe and flexible hose) by a factor to get a head loss value.

For 0.75 inch pipe the factor is 0.15, so my head loss is 0.5 foot (0.15 x 3.5 foot).

I have minimal horizontal tubing.

Head loss from fittings
Some sites say to add one foot head for each corner or tee fitting.

I have the t fitting which equates to one foot head load. I am not taking into account the nossle things I will be using as they could come off if needed.

My total head loss
I calculate my head loss as being:
Vertical distance = 3.5 feet
Tubing = 0.5 feet
T joint fitting = 1 feet
Total head loss = 5 feet

Online calculator
For a site that provides a calculator, see https://pentairaes.com/pump-calculator. Be warned, the calculator uses gpm.

This calculator calculates my head loss to be 3.62 metres.

Calculating water volume
Since we are considering moving water, I calculate my requirement based on the volume of free water, not the total capacity of the aquarium (i.e. not the volume of water in the otherwise empty tank).


Calculating the turn over rate
Some sites suggest calculating the turn over taken into account the free water in both you display and the sump.

Others suggest only taking into account the display tank volume.

I have rethought this and think it’s better to think of the volume in the display.

My circumstances

I am inclined to think my total head loss would be closer to 4.0 - 4.5 feet. I’d say 5 feet for safety.

I would like a four times turnover. Considering the free water in the display would be about 115 litres, this amounts to 460 lph = 122 gph.

I think I could get away with the 1200 lph = 317 gph pump. But, I will try for a 2000 lph pump instead.

However, I anticipate other things that may affect head loss as well as flow. Probably things I haven’t experienced yet.

I have set up the aquarium with fresh water as a test and I am running an old Eheim 12122 (1500-3000 lph with max 3.0 head). I am running on the lowest flow. I have looked at the water streams coming out into the display tank and would be happy with that flow or even half that (i.e. if only one of the pipes had flow).

Thanks again for everyone’s help. Especially big thank you to Tharbin.

I hope the above helps newbies. There are some differences of opinion in there, but at the end of the day it should help someone not buy a pump that’s too small. My preference is for a larger DC pump, but you also have to make sure it fits in your sump!

Also, from my own experience I prefer a sump that has a gentle flow, with a wonderland of bugs and critters that only come out in the dark - I highly recommend newbies buy a red light and look at both their display tanks and sumps in the dark. It’s even better if you turn the water flow off entirely in your display and see what things venture out after a few minutes in the dark without flow.

Henry,

Wonderful summation. Hopefully others will benefit from it as well. Let me add one more point. The flow graphs that show flow versus head height are at the 'recommended' outflow tube diameter. For the 1.3 that is 20mm. If you go up one size, say to the 2.3, its output would be calculated at a 25mm diameter pipe, If it needs to be reduced, say to 20mm, the friction will be greater for the same rise and therefore the max head will be reduced a little. Even the type of fitting will influence the output, is the reducer stepped internally or sloped, etc.

All of this is largely theoretical and more rule of thumb than strict calculation. A flow meter is the only really accurate way to be 'spot on'. It doesn't need to be complex though. I agree, with a caveat, about the water height in the sump not the inlet of the pump. The caveat is that it should be at the low water mark of the return section, not the average or the high water mark. That is usually only an inch or two but it is always better to oversize a pump than undersize it.

The BRS article is nice and simple, it is more practical than mathematical but it works--but you really need the flow graphs to be sure. I usually add about a 50% oversize to be sure.

Good luck.

 

[tharbin]

I’ve actually just ordered a pump rated at 3000 lph. I also ordered a spare impeller. Though the 2000 lph pump would have done the job very well, the 3000 was on special. Also, I am hoping that if I run it at say 30% or lower, it should last a long time.

I will now need to think about reducing the outlet size of one inch to suit my tubing that is 0.75 inch.

I think this is a very solid choice. Remember that even though your return pump CAN provide enough flow for an entire tank, its main priority is moving the water through the sump at an appropriate rate. It is better to think of the return pump as supplemental display flow so that you don't crank up the return to give good display flow and lose some of your filtration capabilities. It is also hard in most tanks for one pump to adequately hit all, or at least most, of the dead spots caused by the aquascape.

I like to see a DC pump running somewhere in the 30%-75% range. That is usually quiet and not overly taxing. It also allows a little more leeway as the pump approaches a maintenance interval. They can slow down a lot when they or the pipes really need to be cleaned.

There are quite a few reducers available. I would check what fittings come with your pump before deciding. In my case the SC 6.0 came with several fittings. One of those was a threaded fitting that also included a 1.25" and 1" barb fitting. The thread was a common thread size so I merely bought a .75" barb fitting with the same size threads. Here is the post in my build thread where I talk about the reducer:

AIO Build - Tenecor 100 Gallon Lagoon-style acrylic AIO

Another update: BRS just had a Spring sale that had the Maxspect Gyres at 30% off. Since I liked the flow pattern of the Jump Gyre 2k but felt it was not quite enough flow for the tank, I went ahead and ordered the Maxspect XF-350 Cloud Edition 2-pack. While I was at it, I decided to also...

www.reef2reef.com

When you get a chance, why not start a build thread? It is a great way to document your tank and gives others an easy way to interact with you on an ongoing basis.