Weekly discussion topic #1 can we improve on nature??

[Luno]

I know the forums can sometimes get a bit boring particularly when it seems like you respond to the same questions from a new reefer in a loop. And maybe a way to discuss things that often don't get discussed but are of interest to forum members. So I thought it might be a fun idea to add something of a weekly discussion topic. And then maybe towards the end of the week or throughout if the thread is used through ideas of what would be a good topic for the following week.
(I searched and couldn't find anything currently running so hopefully this isn't a double thread to another one going).

So the title says it all. . .

CAN WE IMPROVE ON NATURE?

 

[Peach02]

I know the forums can sometimes get a bit boring particularly when it seems like you respond to the same questions from a new reefer in a loop. And maybe a way to discuss things that often don't get discussed but are of interest to forum members. So I thought it might be a fun idea to add something of a weekly discussion topic. And then maybe towards the end of the week or throughout if the thread is used through ideas of what would be a good topic for the following week.
(I searched and couldn't find anything currently running so hopefully this isn't a double thread to another one going).

So the title says it all. . .

CAN WE IMPROVE ON NATURE?

in aspects of creating new species and systems not yet but with genetic engineering growing maybe.
in aspects of fish being happy yes as in our tanks they usually don't deal with predation furthermore they have a stable food source and sometimes a mate which is all they really want so essentially if we put enough money and time into researching and creating a good tank yes if its rushed no

 

[ZoWhat]

define "improve"

 

[Etmanning]

Too broad a question. I'm not sure what you're asking here...

 

[Luno]

define "improve"

Too broad a question. I'm not sure what you're asking here...

Sorry I guess I tried to leave it broad to allow discussion From many points of view with discussion being more important that question and answer but Didn't quiet work haha. I could possibly adjust the first post to give a few options to get the ball rolling.

 

[Luno]

Ok so can't edit my original post anymore. To clarify more do you have a particular view you would to share or discuss in regards to how nature/our more artificial tanks tackles subjects and if you think we can improve on nature such as

- in the way we setup our tanks
- mechanical vs natural filtration
- the sun vs artificial lighting
- lighting spectrum and photoperiod
- coral color, health and survival
- fish health and survival
- water chemistry
- water flow
(A few things I can think of from the top of my head)

I have an example for me of lighting and more specific photoperiod. I made a comment in a thread a bit ago about how I read an article that the great barrier reef on average received somewhere around 60% of days with full sun, 30% of partial sun and 10% of low level sun. Then taking into account winter and summer photoperiods of different durations. This really made me think while the constant level of lighting we give our tanks may promote more coral growth and color, is it also promoting more nuisance growth of algae or diatoms. So I ran my tanks lighting in a more unpredictable manner much more like nature, I noticed a very small change in coral color and moderate change in growth but a notable decline in nuisance algae. And I thought maybe nature had it right.

So while our consistent lighting schedules may promote a higher level of coral color and growth possibly promotes a higher level of growth in other areas that we don't want.

 

[ZoWhat]

- mechanical vs natural filtration
- the sun vs artificial lighting
- lighting spectrum and photoperiod
- coral color, health and survival
- fish health and survival
- water chemistry
- water flow

FIRST OFF.... there is no comparing a natural reef to our "glass boxes".

Filtration - Nature: bazillion gazillion gallons of SW flows thru natural reefs, sorta like us doing a 100% WC every 30mins. cant compare

Filtration - our glass boxes: skimmer exports unwanted elements out of our water AND OXYGENATEs our O2 levels. Chateo is a great choice in sump to eat NO3 and PO4. Carbon dosing super charges GOOD bacteria to outcompete bad bacteria. Weekly WCs is also an underappreciated filtration method.

I personally do all four methodologies and cant wrap my mind around ppl who argue to not use all four.

Sunlight versus Artificial: Sunlight is full spectrum as charted here:

In nature, SW filters out most of the UV and red/infrared the deeper you go..... leaving a light wavelength at around 420-460nm. Corals thriving in shallows need more full spectrum (green and red wavelengths explained below).


* note ALL "visual light" above coming at our eyes all at once to White light

10yrs ago it was a T5/MH world... but LEDs changed to world of reef being able to hone in on peaks.

Me personally, I took eBay Chinese fixtures and resoldered all the diodes. I'm 30% 420nm - 30% 460nm - 20% 540nm green - 10% 390nm uva - 10% 660nm red

Coral health - I'm a huge believer that corals exist at certain DEPTHS for a reason, mainly bc of the light wavelength. the deeper you go the more every nm gets filtered out but 420nm.

You should know at what DEPTH the coral you want to keep thrives at, and replicate that, Mixed reefs can be successfully kept but certain corals wont fully display their color bc they are exposed to a nm wavelength they naturally aren't use to.

Take a deepwater chalice and throw a lot of full spectrum white light at it, it might lose color, possibly brown out, bleach out.

Fish health: it's all about not over stocking the tank. Yes we see schools if fish on Animal Planet but it's the Ocean where a bazillion gazillion gallons of SW is sweeping away toxic elements that our "glass boxes" cant even begin with competing with.

Managing food is ultra important. Throwing in food that is NOT consumed in 3mins and still floating around will turn toxic poisoning that tank. I try to use a strict 3min feed amount.

Water chemistry: Triton and all these dising methods are a good thing but a good old WC regiment is best IMO. A great salt is going to have all 70+ major, minor and trace elements in an ENGINEERed formula. You'll never see a Iodine overdose in WCs but you will see it if you become the Mad Dosing Scientist trying to make the perfect "soup recipe"

Hope this all helps with some insights over 15yrs



.

 

[WVNed]

When you are young you think you can
When you are old you think WOW did we goof that up.

The older I get the more I realize that we are doing things based on what are essentially religious beliefs with lots of inertia instead of understanding.

 

[Luno]

FIRST OFF.... there is no comparing a natural reef to our "glass boxes".

Filtration - Nature: bazillion gazillion gallons of SW flows thru natural reefs, sorta like us doing a 100% WC every 30mins. cant compare

Filtration - our glass boxes: skimmer exports unwanted elements out of our water AND OXYGENATEs our O2 levels. Chateo is a great choice in sump to eat NO3 and PO4. Carbon dosing super charges GOOD bacteria to outcompete bad bacteria. Weekly WCs is also an underappreciated filtration method.

I personally do all four methodologies and cant wrap my mind around ppl who argue to not use all four.

Sunlight versus Artificial: Sunlight is full spectrum as charted here:

In nature, SW filters out most of the UV and red/infrared the deeper you go..... leaving a light wavelength at around 420-460nm

* note "visual light" range above to our eyes is White light coming at our eyes.

10yrs ago it was a T5/MH world... but LEDs changed to world of reef being able to hone in on peaks.

Me personally, I took eBay Chinese fixtures and resoldered all the diodes. I'm 30% 420nm - 30% 460nm - 20% 540nm green - 10% 390nm uva - 10% 660nm red

Coral health - I'm a huge believer that corals exist at certain DEPTHS for a reason, mainly bc of the light wavelength. the deeper you go the more every nm gets filtered out but 420nm.

You should know at what DEPTH the coral you want to keep thrives at, and replicate that, Mixed reefs can be successfully kept but certain corals wont fully display their color bc they are exposed to a nm wavelength they naturally aren't use to.

Take a deepwater chalice and throw a lot of full spectrum white light at it, it might lose color, possibly brown out, bleach out.

Fish health: it's all about not over stocking the tank. Yes we see schools if fish on Animal Planet but it's the Ocean where a bazillion gazillion gallons of SW is sweeping away toxic elements that our "glass boxes" cant even begin with competing with.

Managing food is ultra important. Throwing in food that is NOT consumed in 3mins and still floating around will turn toxic poisoning that tank. I try to use a strict 3min feed amount.

Water chemistry: Triton and all these dising methods are a good thing but a good old WC regiment is best IMO. A great salt is going to have all 70+ major, minor and trace elements in an ENGINEERed formula. You'll never see a Iodine overdose in WCs but you will see it if you become the Mad Dosing Scientist trying to make the perfect "soup recipe"

Hope this all helps with some insights over 15yrs



.

Wow so much info! I guess I'm left asking your 15 years is there anything you think you could create better in your Aquarium than nature could achieve?

 

[ZoWhat]

Wow so much info! I guess I'm left asking your 15 years is there anything you think you could create better in your Aquarium than nature could achieve?

Playing around with nm lightwaves can bring out certain colors not achieved in nature.

But "playing around" should always be slow and consistent over the course of sticking to NM choices for 4-6 weeks to see changes

I've seen pics of an Acros only tank very heavy on 420nm blue but heavier 660nm RED. He has some crazy colors, crazy growth. but Acros can handle Reds where other corals cant.

AGAIN. know your corals thriving depth



.

 

[Lasse]

When you are young you think you can
When you are old you think WOW did we goof that up.

The older I get the more I realize that we are doing things based on what are essentially religious beliefs with lots of inertia instead of understanding.

See my quote below

Sincerely Lasse

 

[User1]

Original answer was no, we are not Mother Nature...

Second answer is as it related to the hobby and the answer is more or less yes. There are always areas to improve within limits and reason as it relates to what we keep. Some of it was noted above by @skimjim in that we, the hobbyist, should have a plan or at least know what organism we are trying to keep and if we have a proper setup to do so. Sort of always brings me back to the book title The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Mr. Fenner. Great title and that alone is worth a million dollars...

 

[ca1ore]

Improve on nature..... definitely not. Our tanks are, at best, a poor analog of natural reefs. Maybe in 20 years when man has well and truly killed off wild reefs the calculus will be different.

 

[TexasReefer82]

I could see the reef hobby going the same direction as horticulture/gardening once we get breeding down to a science. When you go to the garden nursery to buy a plant you're not buying a plant that's even remotely close to a wild species. You're buying a "horticultural variety" of a wild species that has been hybridized over many generations and carefully selected for size, growth form, color, hardiness, flowers, etc.

Whether this is an improvement on nature is purely a subjective evaluation. It's an improved variety for our garden or yard for sure - but the same thing likely wouldn't survive in the same wild place where the original species came from.

If I could create an improved version of anything I'd like create a "micro urchin" that only gets to be the diameter of a dime. Maybe it would be a "Aquacultural dwarf variety" of the blue tuxedo urchin. You could stock these in your tank at a rate of 1 urchin per every 5 gallons and nuisance algae would be a thing of the past!

 

[hart24601]

Just depends on the context. Right now everything "natural" is so trendy. As we know the wild world can be incredibly cruel however even that concept is one of our constructions.

 

[lapin]

We can not improve on nature. What humans can do is create an environment that favors certain organisms over others. This usually results in a decline in diversity, causing imbalances. Depending on what organism you are, you can thrive or die.

Improve on nature..... definitely not. Our tanks are, at best, a poor analog of natural reefs. Maybe in 20 years when man has well and truly killed off wild reefs the calculus will be different.

I have to agree.

 

[Turtlesteve]

I could see the reef hobby going the same direction as horticulture/gardening once we get breeding down to a science. When you go to the garden nursery to buy a plant you're not buying a plant that's even remotely close to a wild species. You're buying a "horticultural variety" of a wild species that has been hybridized over many generations and carefully selected for size, growth form, color, hardiness, flowers, etc.

Whether this is an improvement on nature is purely a subjective evaluation. It's an improved variety for our garden or yard for sure - but the same thing likely wouldn't survive in the same wild place where the original species came from.

If I could create an improved version of anything I'd like create a "micro urchin" that only gets to be the diameter of a dime. Maybe it would be a "Aquacultural dwarf variety" of the blue tuxedo urchin. You could stock these in your tank at a rate of 1 urchin per every 5 gallons and nuisance algae would be a thing of the past!

Yep, this is what I see happening. We're already getting there with "grafted" corals, etc. Whether this is an improvement depends on perspective.

 

[TexasReefer82]

Yep, this is what I see happening. We're already getting there with "grafted" corals, etc. Whether this is an improvement depends on perspective.

I suspect that one day we'll figure out how to transfer colors between corals as well. Basically I suspect we'll learn how to manufacture color corals. I'm thinking personally that thraustochytrids may be involved in Coral coloration.

 

[tehmadreefer]

One word "nope"

 

[hart24601]

I would add that we probably have improved on corals from our perspective already, despite essentially being clones coral strains that have been in captivity for decades might have if not genetic then perhaps gene expression changes that allow for greater coloration and tolerance for environmental swing that occur in our systems. So improvement from a reef keepers perspective is probably ongoing keeping in mind our systems are not natural, never will be and shouldn't be treated as such.