What could be wrong with my tank health?

[balajeek15]

While researching and found a member referred using Fuel for trace elements.
https://www.aquavitro.com/fuel.php
Any thoughts on this? or a similar one from Seachem Reef Plus.

Again I do not want to add unless if my water require it. for that i need to do ICP testing, when i checked in BRS i found CoralVue and Triton Lab, which one is good? How often to test?

 

[ScottR]

I try to keep my nitrates around 5, and phosphate around .02-.05... for an SPS tank. If you’re keeping LPS and softies, they can even be a bit higher.

Best way to raise phosphate is to stop the reactor and feed your fish a little more. Don’t go crazy and dump a ton in so that you get an algae outbreak...but just add a little more than you are feeding now.

Nitrates come from fish waste, so more fish = more nitrates. If you don’t want any more fish, nitrates can be dosed... but as a fish person I’d rather go that way

I handle trace elements by doing regular water changes. I do weekly to bi-weekly water changes to keep things stable in my own tank.

You can dose, but then you would want to do regular ICP testing to make sure you aren’t getting a surplus of one element and a shortage of another.

I think it’s much more simple to just let my salt mix do the work for me there, but I know there are others here who run no water-change systems. Maybe someone will chime in with a suggested dosing schedule for trace elements or other things beyond 2-part, that water changes would usually replenish.

+1 on water changes for trace elements. Most salts out there provide enough trace elements that can be restocked through regular water changes.

 

[Jon Fishman]

I know I don’t want to be a slave to the maintenance either, and hope to have dosing set up as well etc...... But my goal is to get to monthly water-changes, and also make that part of it “easier” when it is time to do them...... I feel like it’s a good compromise between “none” and “weekly”.

It just seems like chasing parameters without doing water changes is more effort than actually just doing the occasional water change.

 

[svogun]

I had a similar issue when phosphates and nitrate were undetectable. Start by slowly dosing phosphate with a product like Neophos and potassium nitrate like spectracide stump remover. As long as your big 3 are stable the addition of nitrate and phosphate should color up those corals. I’ve sps corals that were completely bleached that recovered beautifully.

 

[madweazl]

Two A360WEs can work on mixed reef of those dimensions; I posted a PAR map for a 75g here (same footprint as the 90g but not as tall). Placed smartly, you can keep many corals but your lights need to be hung no more than 6" over the water or the PAR is going to be much lower than what you see in my results.

The Red Sea magnesium test kit seems to be problematic for some people so you may actually want to try with another kit just to confirm your results (or maybe take a sample to the LFS).

I wouldn't worry about a target number for nitrates or phosphates, just bringing it to a detectable amount will be sufficient. My phosphates (PO4) are up to .23ppm right now and my acroporas are still chugging along; point here is that you have a fairly wide range to work within, don't get caught up in trying to hold it at a specific number. Turning off the phosphate reactor is a good place to start; I wouldn't feed more and turn off the reactor, just start with one (the reactor) and monitor for a couple weeks (you wont see any trend before that so don't make any changes for at least a couple weeks).

While balling methods work for many people, it may be a good idea to start with a reset of sorts. What I'm suggesting here is to do some larger water changes (upwards of 40%+ if possible) a number of times over the next couple weeks (i.e. four or five in two weeks) to "normalize" your parameters. This would ensure all the requisite major, minor, and trace elements are replenished. From there, you could go back to a balling method of choice and be reasonably confident your water parameters are at a good base point. An alternative would be the ICP to see if the water changes are even necessary; it will take roughly two weeks to get your results (ATI and Triton are my go to sources for ICP analysis as I just dont trust the others). ATI also tests your RO/DI water which is a nice addition and even costs less than Triton. If the ICP confirms you're deficient, you could then resort to larger water changes; I recommend this over trying to chase trace element levels with additives (cant beat the simplicity of water changes here).

I run carbon 24/7 just for water clarity and have had no issues with the fish or corals. Use it according to the manufacturers recommendation; I use Two Little Fishies at 1/4 cup per 25 gallons of water and change it every two weeks. You can also skip using it altogether if you like.

Are you using bio-pellets in your bio-reactor? If so, that is a form of carbon dosing that will lower nitrates and phosphates. If so, I suggest slowing the flow through the reactor way down or turning it off-line altogether. A gradual shut down over time will likely produce better results than shutting if off as nitrate/phosphate may shoot up to high levels over night which rarely ends well for your corals.

Lastly, more important than your absolute test results are the trends in those measurements. Do you have a history of results that you can track over the course of the past couple months? If so, do you notice any trends in your tanks health in regard to those measurements? For instance, my calcium levels have remained relatively consistent for the past 10 weeks (I test everything weekly)...

... but my phosphate levels have increased nine of the past 10 weeks.

The absolute number isn't all that important but identifying what caused the steady increase the past nine weeks is (in this case, I shut down the GFO reactor).

 

[ScottR]

Two A360WEs can work on mixed reef of those dimensions; I posted a PAR map for a 75g here (same footprint as the 90g but not as tall). Placed smartly, you can keep many corals but your lights need to be hung no more than 6" over the water or the PAR is going to be much lower than what you see in my results.

The Red Sea magnesium test kit seems to be problematic for some people so you may actually want to try with another kit just to confirm your results (or maybe take a sample to the LFS).

I wouldn't worry about a target number for nitrates or phosphates, just bringing it to a detectable amount will be sufficient. My phosphates (PO4) are up to .23ppm right now and my acroporas are still chugging along; point here is that you have a fairly wide range to work within, don't get caught up in trying to hold it at a specific number. Turning off the phosphate reactor is a good place to start; I wouldn't feed more and turn off the reactor, just start with one (the reactor) and monitor for a couple weeks (you wont see any trend before that so don't make any changes for at least a couple weeks).

While balling methods work for many people, it may be a good idea to start with a reset of sorts. What I'm suggesting here is to do some larger water changes (upwards of 40%+ if possible) a number of times over the next couple weeks (i.e. four or five in two weeks) to "normalize" your parameters. This would ensure all the requisite major, minor, and trace elements are replenished. From there, you could go back to a balling method of choice and be reasonably confident your water parameters are at a good base point. An alternative would be the ICP to see if the water changes are even necessary; it will take roughly two weeks to get your results (ATI and Triton are my go to sources for ICP analysis as I just dont trust the others). ATI also tests your RO/DI water which is a nice addition and even costs less than Triton. If the ICP confirms you're deficient, you could then resort to larger water changes; I recommend this over trying to chase trace element levels with additives (cant beat the simplicity of water changes here).

I run carbon 24/7 just for water clarity and have had no issues with the fish or corals. Use it according to the manufacturers recommendation; I use Two Little Fishies at 1/4 cup per 25 gallons of water and change it every two weeks. You can also skip using it altogether if you like.

Are you using bio-pellets in your bio-reactor? If so, that is a form of carbon dosing that will lower nitrates and phosphates. If so, I suggest slowing the flow through the reactor way down or turning it off-line altogether. A gradual shut down over time will likely produce better results than shutting if off as nitrate/phosphate may shoot up to high levels over night which rarely ends well for your corals.

Lastly, more important than your absolute test results are the trends in those measurements. Do you have a history of results that you can track over the course of the past couple months? If so, do you notice any trends in your tanks health in regard to those measurements? For instance, my calcium levels have remained relatively consistent for the past 10 weeks (I test everything weekly)...

... but my phosphate levels have increased nine of the past 10 weeks.

The absolute number isn't all the important but identifying what caused the steady increase past nine weeks to has led to the steady increase is (in this case, I shut down the GFO reactor).

+1 on WC for trace element replenishment. You’d be surprised how much a WC helps. A good salt contains almost everything you need.

 

[BeejReef]

I know I don’t want to be a slave to the maintenance either, and hope to have dosing set up as well etc...... But my goal is to get to monthly water-changes, and also make that part of it “easier” when it is time to do them...... I feel like it’s a good compromise between “none” and “weekly”.

It just seems like chasing parameters without doing water changes is more effort than actually just doing the occasional water change.

Agreed.. I mean, depending on if you own or rent, and tank placement.. even if you hired a plumber and did none of it yourself, a stand-pipe floor drain might cost.. what, $300.. a used pump and some nylon hose up from your salt mix station in the basement... no more than $200. Water drains.. push button.. water fills. DIY, maybe $250.

With 4yo tanks, I get it. They're stable, there's ICP, you've moved on to a higher plane of reefing existence. First year or three though, it's not just about changing out some water with a DOS for the sake of trace elements. I'm scrubbing shaggy rock, scraping glass, and vacuuming sand. Not a ton, but easily enough to suck out 5-10g a week.

 

[Jon Fishman]

Agreed.. I mean, depending on if you own or rent, and tank placement.. even if you hired a plumber and did none of it yourself, a stand-pipe floor drain might cost.. what, $300.. a used pump and some nylon hose up from your salt mix station in the basement... no more than $200. Water drains.. push button.. water fills. DIY, maybe $250.

With 4yo tanks, I get it. They're stable, there's ICP, you've moved on to a higher plane of reefing existence. First year or three though, it's not just about changing out some water with a DOS for the sake of trace elements. I'm scrubbing shaggy rock, scraping glass, and vacuuming sand. Not a ton, but easily enough to suck out 5-10g a week.

I don't know what I'm doing right, but I had a 46g briefly, and would hit the rocks with a toothbrush every 4-5 days . I only had this tank for about 6 weeks before going to a 75, but either way, I haven't put that toothbrush near my tank in at least a month..... my rocks look pretty good. I have a decent CUC, but prior to a few days ago I had no algae eating fish. New tank just has a ball of chaeto tumbling around in the sump under a light. I do have probably close to 100 lbs of rock between my display and sump though..... so that may help also.

And I don't have a basement. I own the house, but it's built on a crawl (wish it were slab at this point honestly) Unless I altered the plans for my tank location (not gonna happen) and use a storage closet for sump etc.... my plumbing options are pretty limited, and honestly when you hit the 250+ gallon tanks, you need an equipment room for ATO/Changing stations etc..... I will have a 50g or so ATO reservoir under my stand, and a 55g sump. When I think about "simplifying" water-changes, to me, that is three brutes on dolly's..... kept in a storage closet, one is full of my pre-mixed saltwater, one with RODI, and an empty that I put tank/waste water in. I use a return pump and hosing to re-fill the tank from the new saltwater brute, and use old-fashioned siphon for sandbed, and sump. If you're not stopping/starting every time you need to change 5g buckets, and are using a waste-water brute, it goes pretty quick.

I don't have an ATO yet, so I use the same pump/hose from RODI into the sump for refilling a little every other day, as to not move stuff or try to dump water right into tank/make a mess etc.

with various size flexible hose/make-shift, most extra old powerheads/pumps can make your life easier, and brutes on dolly's are great.

I have my tank on the main living floor (first) so if you have a basement you probably have more options depending on how finished of a basement it is, and if you go 2nd floor or higher route, then I would start to consider plumbing down to the floor below.

 

[balajeek15]

Two A360WEs can work on mixed reef of those dimensions; I posted a PAR map for a 75g here (same footprint as the 90g but not as tall). Placed smartly, you can keep many corals but your lights need to be hung no more than 6" over the water or the PAR is going to be much lower than what you see in my results.

The Red Sea magnesium test kit seems to be problematic for some people so you may actually want to try with another kit just to confirm your results (or maybe take a sample to the LFS).

I wouldn't worry about a target number for nitrates or phosphates, just bringing it to a detectable amount will be sufficient. My phosphates (PO4) are up to .23ppm right now and my acroporas are still chugging along; point here is that you have a fairly wide range to work within, don't get caught up in trying to hold it at a specific number. Turning off the phosphate reactor is a good place to start; I wouldn't feed more and turn off the reactor, just start with one (the reactor) and monitor for a couple weeks (you wont see any trend before that so don't make any changes for at least a couple weeks).

While balling methods work for many people, it may be a good idea to start with a reset of sorts. What I'm suggesting here is to do some larger water changes (upwards of 40%+ if possible) a number of times over the next couple weeks (i.e. four or five in two weeks) to "normalize" your parameters. This would ensure all the requisite major, minor, and trace elements are replenished. From there, you could go back to a balling method of choice and be reasonably confident your water parameters are at a good base point. An alternative would be the ICP to see if the water changes are even necessary; it will take roughly two weeks to get your results (ATI and Triton are my go to sources for ICP analysis as I just dont trust the others). ATI also tests your RO/DI water which is a nice addition and even costs less than Triton. If the ICP confirms you're deficient, you could then resort to larger water changes; I recommend this over trying to chase trace element levels with additives (cant beat the simplicity of water changes here).

I run carbon 24/7 just for water clarity and have had no issues with the fish or corals. Use it according to the manufacturers recommendation; I use Two Little Fishies at 1/4 cup per 25 gallons of water and change it every two weeks. You can also skip using it altogether if you like.

Are you using bio-pellets in your bio-reactor? If so, that is a form of carbon dosing that will lower nitrates and phosphates. If so, I suggest slowing the flow through the reactor way down or turning it off-line altogether. A gradual shut down over time will likely produce better results than shutting if off as nitrate/phosphate may shoot up to high levels over night which rarely ends well for your corals.

Lastly, more important than your absolute test results are the trends in those measurements. Do you have a history of results that you can track over the course of the past couple months? If so, do you notice any trends in your tanks health in regard to those measurements? For instance, my calcium levels have remained relatively consistent for the past 10 weeks (I test everything weekly)...

... but my phosphate levels have increased nine of the past 10 weeks.

The absolute number isn't all that important but identifying what caused the steady increase the past nine weeks is (in this case, I shut down the GFO reactor).

thanks for the in-depth details and taking time to respond. seem like you and others response is more towards setting up regular water changes. As an immediate resort i will do a large water change today or tomorrow.

I ordered ICP from Triton that will be shipped to me Thu, i will ship back the samples next day Fri and hopefully i will compare the Mg level with ICP result with my Red Sea test kit. (I had bad experience with Salifert so switched to RedSea)

If i use carbon i need to change it every two weeks? oh my, may be i can skip it if its not that important.

There is no bio-pellet reactor at present and bought them to add it.

About the history, yes i enter them whenever i do the tests into my apex fusion.

 

[balajeek15]

Agreed.. I mean, depending on if you own or rent, and tank placement.. even if you hired a plumber and did none of it yourself, a stand-pipe floor drain might cost.. what, $300.. a used pump and some nylon hose up from your salt mix station in the basement... no more than $200. Water drains.. push button.. water fills. DIY, maybe $250.

With 4yo tanks, I get it. They're stable, there's ICP, you've moved on to a higher plane of reefing existence. First year or three though, it's not just about changing out some water with a DOS for the sake of trace elements. I'm scrubbing shaggy rock, scraping glass, and vacuuming sand. Not a ton, but easily enough to suck out 5-10g a week.

Unfortunately i don't have a basement and the placement of the tank is in living room where no nice way to setup auto drain or line in, I barely made the ATO becaz the pipe is just 1/4" so i was able to hide around the molding. If i got regular water change route then the only way i guess it to setup a storage tank next to the tank and have to find something that does not look ugly.

 

[BeejReef]

That's what makes it such an interesting hobby. Different bacteria, different livestock, different home layouts, different equipment.

I really don't know how I'd implement regular water changes in a setup like you or Jon Fishman have. The 32g trash can of saltwater in the dining room wasn't cutting it with my wife and pouring 5g buckets into the kitchen sink, or even down the toilet, was very sloppy, and I'm only running a little 60g tank. Maybe you could get a carpenter to build you a nice wooden trunk to house your storage tank... or have a custom stand built wider than your tank? Jon's system of drums on dollies sounds do-able, but that's some serious dedication!

 

[madweazl]

thanks for the in-depth details and taking time to respond. seem like you and others response is more towards setting up regular water changes. As an immediate resort i will do a large water change today or tomorrow.

I ordered ICP from Triton that will be shipped to me Thu, i will ship back the samples next day Fri and hopefully i will compare the Mg level with ICP result with my Red Sea test kit. (I had bad experience with Salifert so switched to RedSea)

If i use carbon i need to change it every two weeks? oh my, may be i can skip it if its not that important.

There is no bio-pellet reactor at present and bought them to add it.

About the history, yes i enter them whenever i do the tests into my apex fusion.

There are many successful balling method examples so water changes certainly aren't mandatory however, I firmly believe it's the easiest, quickest, and least expensive way to get your tank back to ground zero. From there, you could re-attack whichever method strikes your fancy.

 

[balajeek15]

I also wonder now how my nitrates are zero considering i have no sock filter since the beginning and i never removed those debris on the bottom of my sump. only thing i see is my protein skimmer gets full in 7-10 days with think brown nasty stuff. Should i try another nitrate test kit instead of red sea.

 

[BeejReef]

I also wonder now how my nitrates are zero considering i have no sock filter since the beginning and i never removed those debris on the bottom of my sump. only thing i see is my protein skimmer gets full in 7-10 days with think brown nasty stuff. Should i try another nitrate test kit instead of red sea.

Nitrate seems to be a wildcard. I have no filter socks, am running my skimmer with the cup off (just for aeration), and only light my chaeto 9 hours a day and I'm lucky to read .75-1ppm Nitrate. If I light the fuge for 12 hours, it goes to zero. I only have 6 smaller fish in a 65g, but still. It seems odd. I feed them more than they can eat twice a day and spot feed and broadcast feed my little fraggy corals 2-3 times a week. Good problem to have though, just like my unnaturally high ph of 8.4!

 

[balajeek15]

I shipped my ICP samples today via priority mail (looks like they don't send pre-paid anymore) and hopefully i should i the result in 7-10days. I will share what the result is when i get it.

 

[balajeek15]

I package i sent reached them Mon 13th, i got mail this morning Wed 15th:

"We have received your water sample at the TRITON regional hub. Your sample will now be forwarded to the TRITON-Lab in Germany within 2-3 working days. You will receive a further email once your sample has arrived. Thanks for using our service. Best Regards Team TRITON"

I was under impression the whole process is within 7-10 days, looks like its going to take longer.

 

[balajeek15]

I got my Triton lab ICP results today, see their recommendation and let me know the best i can follow.
Clearly Iodine is 0 how can i increase to the desired level in how many days?
Magnesium they say 1390 low but when i tested on the same day i sent out the sample shows 1600+ using RedSea kit.
There is too many recommendation they are making, not sure what or how to follow.

 

[ScottR]

I got my Triton lab ICP results today, see their recommendation and let me know the best i can follow.
Clearly Iodine is 0 how can i increase to the desired level in how many days?
Magnesium they say 1390 low but when i tested on the same day i sent out the sample shows 1600+ using RedSea kit.
There is too many recommendation they are making, not sure what or how to follow.

Thanks for sharing. Seems you’re lacking lots of elements in your water. You may have mentioned before, but what salt are you using.? You may want to change salts. Most will contain all of these trace elements and through water changes, you’ll be able to replace them. Dosing and testing for all of those elements will be a headache and quite expensive. It if you’re up to it, why not?

 

[artieg1]

Just a thought, based on experience and "mystery wasting" of certain corals. Any angel you have in that tank will focus on you while you are there, then turns its attention to corals when you leave. So you won't necessarily see it. I got rid of all my "reef safe" angels, and it was night and day.

 

[laverda]

Like others have suggested I think a few large water changes will be the best way to get your parameters back on track. Once you do you will need to dose a lot more than just ALK, Ca & Mag. It is not that hard, but you need to know where you stand so you can figure how much of what to dose. The ICP tests can be a big help or you can buy additional test kits for the most critical elements.
You may want to look into the DSR method. There is a thread here on it. I find the spreadsheet is very helpful in determining what and how much to dose. It takes a little while to determine how much you need to dose the different elements. I have not done a water change myself in close to 3 years myself.