What do I do!
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Neoalchemist
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No see, we need to know what size tank. To properly size your uv. You are wasting effort cleaning right now. Uv needs to be running and no3 at 10 or greater and po4 at .1 before any cleaning or other steps.
Neoalchemist
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If you clean now they will just re settle by the end of the week.
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Scooter90254
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Ok got ya. Posted the tank size here. Figure I have about 50 gallons of water.
Neoalchemist
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I think you need a bigger uv. Jeabo makes an inexpensive 24 watt unit. The key to uv is that it has to be grossly oversized compared to the manufacturers recommendations to work with dino's and if the conditions arent right to at least give the dino competitors a leg up (no3 po4 and maybe silicate dosing)then the dinos will always come back.
Neoalchemist
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The plan is:
Crank up the uv
Clean the tank and shake the dinos off thier happy cloud
Then do a three day black out so they stay in the water column as long as possible unable to find thier comfy crib in the dark. All the while they are getting cooked by uv by the millions.
After the blackout add competition and biodiversity. Some use bottle bacteria others add well used live rock or live phyto or pods. I did a little of both and still do.
Rinse and repeat.
Oh, and never again po4 below .06 and nitrate below 10. The tank will eventually find a balance somewhere around these #s.
Crank up the uv
Clean the tank and shake the dinos off thier happy cloud
Then do a three day black out so they stay in the water column as long as possible unable to find thier comfy crib in the dark. All the while they are getting cooked by uv by the millions.
After the blackout add competition and biodiversity. Some use bottle bacteria others add well used live rock or live phyto or pods. I did a little of both and still do.
Rinse and repeat.
Oh, and never again po4 below .06 and nitrate below 10. The tank will eventually find a balance somewhere around these #s.
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OP
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Scooter90254
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Sounds good. I will order the Jeboa today and go from there.
Should I do a water change before the blackout or just let it be.
sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
First let's get a microscope to determine ID of dino. Stop all water changes. Something in our salts fuels growth. Stop all po4 and no3 reducers.
Can you post all your numbers and please include po4 and no3 .
sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
I don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info:
Let's get started!
- some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak
- how to avoid common dino outbreaks
- and what do if your tank is already having an outbreak
Common Contributing Factors
Some of the most common factors that contribute to the dino outbreaks we cover in this thread are:
These four factors, or excess nutrient removal generally, play – usually in combination; rarely just one factor alone – pretty directly into dino's conversion to the blooming, phagotrophic, mat forming, toxin-producing side of their nature.
- the tank being new, rock being immature or the tank being otherwise highly disturbed, such as by other harsh tank treatments
- hard core nutrient reduction tools being used, such as
- organic carbon dosing
- excess "bio media"
- algae filtration
- nutrient adsorbing media like GFO
How To Avoid Having A Dino Outbreak
- Starvation Is Their Cue
- Dino's seem to prefer life as autotrophic epiphytes on macro algae – chaeto morpha seems to be one of their favorite types to host in. (Maybe this fact can be useful to us; maybe sometimes chaeto ought not be used, or used with special consideration)
- For several reasons, dino's seem to be terrible at nutrient uptake. This means they are more prone to starvation than many or most other microorganisms they have to compete with.....especially bacteria, which can scavenge free nutrients down to CRAZY low levels...low enough to starve out other microbes or algae.
- With their protective mucus mats, potential to generate wicked toxins, and ability to survive not only by way of photosynthesis and dissolved nutrients, but alternately, when times get tough, by "eating their neighbors". (The least of their tricks.)
- Dino's generally gain a competitive edge against their competitors AND their predators in a nutrient-starved environment. Keep reading!
In a nutshell, here's how to avoid dino outbreaks and begin to normalize your tank if you already have an outbreak:
What to do if you're tank is already having a dino outbreak
- Phosphate Control
- DO NOT let your phosphates hit or stay at zero.
- See: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
- Nitrate Control
- Do not let your nitrates hit or stay at zero.
- See: Putting the N in dinoflagellates
- See: A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
- Starvation conditions (zero or near-zero nitrate or phosphate levels) should be avoided.
- Keep in mind that dissolved nutrients are not "waste products" to be eliminated
- They are nutrients for the critters you care about like corals
- The are also nutrients for a potential multitude of mostly-unknown/anonymous microbes that are needed to bring stability to a new tank.
- Once excess nutrients have an impact, in fact, they usually can't be simply eliminated with media anyway – they've probably already had an impact on the tank's microbial cycle. (See blog link #3 at bottom.)
- This all adds up to skipping almost all "extra" nutrient removing steps during the tank's initial development. This period seems to be especially critical, and longer in a tank started with dry, dead rock. Don't use anything until it's absolutely needed and other options have been fully exhausted...and be conservative with how you apply any nutrient removing tool.
When attempting to control an organism like a dinoflagellate, confirming the ID will help, if possible:
- So to begin with, make sure you have Dinos – you should have multiple factors at work...these factors were mentioned in the first section above. The less these factors seem to describe your tank, the less likely any of this advice will be correct for your situation – so post questions!
- Once you have confirmed that you have dino's you should ideally figure out what type(s) your tank is hosting. (Multiple species blooms seem almost as common as single-strain blooms.)
- A basic 1200x microscope will be useful and doesn't have to be fancier than a $15 toy scope. Even a $50 scope is a lot nicer, if you think you might be more serious about it.
- See: Selecting a microscope for more discussion.
- Compare your dino's with photos where @taricha and @Beardo have already made ID's:
- (Click the link. Then click the SEARCH button at the bottom of the search page.)
- ostreopsis
- prorocentrum
- amphidinium
- Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods (they are unique and somewhat more experimental)
- coolia
- (other searches coming)
So, after you get a measure of control, make sure you read What is the End Game?
- Extra Measures
Generally, these tools will give extra control in terms of removing and/or killing cells in the water column....usually, along with other measures explained here, expediting the close of the dino bloom.
- UV
You can find discussions throughout the thread by using this search, with a great breakout of spec's on post #3770.- Diatom Filtration
Effective, but not that popular. The more common units like the classic Vortex are somewhat difficult to use, and the newer units like the new Marineland Polishing Filter are relatively unknown. Still worthy of consideration.
Miscellaneous Goodies
- Post #2725 has a great diary of tank observations, test results and time-series graphs during the treatment for dino's from one of our members.
- Disturbances we cause in our tanks are what allow microbial/algal populations to shift and ugly/harmful blooms to happen.
- Take measures to assure that your feeding system is very consistent. An auto-feeder is an overlooked tool on most tanks. Look at Eheim's feeders...set them on low with high quality flake food. Just don't let them run your whole feeding program as flake isn't great food.
- Find out what inconsistencies you can eliminate with your husbandry to prevent more unneeded disturbances and the resulting microbial/algal changes. This could be changes to lighting or water chemistry – make them as consistent as you can.
- E.g. If you're adding new livestock all the time, stop it. If you have a color-tunable light fixture, stop re-tuning the colors. If you don't have an ATO keeping your salinity stable, get one. If you're still managing your dosing by hand, get an $80 4-head doser. Etc.
- If you provide the stability, then your dino's competitors will start competing with them and their predators will start eating them!!
2¢
- One thing that seems to help things progress is to stop scraping down the algae off your glass....once the dino's start giving up space that is. Mechanical removal is a legit short-term strategy and might help give competitors a leg up too.
Other interesting more-or-less related links on my blog:
(Also cross-posted in the old Dino thread!)
- The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate
- Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom
- Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication
Please read this if you haven't yet
sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
so some dino go into the sandbed at night and some go into the water column. The ones that venture into the water column at night will be destroyed by UV. The others won't be phased.
In my opinion black outs are a 50/50 shot. Most of the time its lack of po4 and no3 that push these guys to plague status. In nutrient deprived systems they switch from photosynthesis to predators. At this time they wipe out the competition with toxins. This causes cuc and coral to die. Fish dont seem to mind.
In my opinion black outs are a 50/50 shot. Most of the time its lack of po4 and no3 that push these guys to plague status. In nutrient deprived systems they switch from photosynthesis to predators. At this time they wipe out the competition with toxins. This causes cuc and coral to die. Fish dont seem to mind.
Seminoles76
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i Would personally skip the WC. Get the larger sized UV and let it take them out. I think you will be happy with the results. Meanwhile get some NO3/PO4 in the tank. Keep getting the Dino’s into the water column to the UV and I think you will get the results your after.
sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
My water change, when dealing with dino, consisted of siphoning out dino into a bucket through a 10 micron sock and than dumping water back into the tank.
Neoalchemist
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10 micron isnt small enough, by the documented sizes it should be, but I went down to 5 micron I would still see the dinos re collect into clumps in the bucket after the filter sock was removed.
sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
http://blog.coralwonders.com/en/dinoflagelados-en-el-acuario-marino/ this is another good read
20- 300 micron is there size. A 10 micron sock should catch all of them .
20- 300 micron is there size. A 10 micron sock should catch all of them .
Neoalchemist
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The reason I suggested a water change is to make the biggest dent in the population as possible and get the rest into the water during uv and black out. Also, in my case I found that I was having trouble getting any other competitors to grow. I started out with no water changes but got nowhere in 4 or 5 months. Once I got back to manual removal through normal water changes (with maintained no3 and po4 levels) I started to see algea growth including cheato after that less and less dinos.
I battled dinos for a few months and mine looked exactly like yours.
I know exactly what caused mine since they came about after I made a single change to the tank which was adding new dry rock. I'm 99% sure my dinos were feeding off the silicates in the new rock while at the same time consuming nutrients.
What worked for me is a significantly reduced light schedule with a couple 3 day blackouts. If your dinos are like mine, they're most noticable at the peak lighting hours because they're highly photosynthetic. The 3 day blackout should knock them down, and the reduced lighting schedule should help your other algaes and bacteria gain some ground against the dinos. Blowing off the rocks and catching everything in a filter sock will also help clear the silicates out of your system.
Another thing I should add is that my dinos thrived in my refugium. If you're running one I'd recommend you do away with it.
I know exactly what caused mine since they came about after I made a single change to the tank which was adding new dry rock. I'm 99% sure my dinos were feeding off the silicates in the new rock while at the same time consuming nutrients.
What worked for me is a significantly reduced light schedule with a couple 3 day blackouts. If your dinos are like mine, they're most noticable at the peak lighting hours because they're highly photosynthetic. The 3 day blackout should knock them down, and the reduced lighting schedule should help your other algaes and bacteria gain some ground against the dinos. Blowing off the rocks and catching everything in a filter sock will also help clear the silicates out of your system.
Another thing I should add is that my dinos thrived in my refugium. If you're running one I'd recommend you do away with it.
Neoalchemist
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I've used this method for ostreopsis, then amphidinium, at one point I had the family. At least 5 species at the same time
Ernie C
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Not sure if anyone has mentioned it but there is the following thread where people are posting how they beat dinos, me included.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/who-has-won-the-war-on-dinos.582708/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/who-has-won-the-war-on-dinos.582708/
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sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
You may have to dose twice a day. For my phosphate it was twice a day for a while before I started seeing results . note that rock and other stuff will absorb it too not to mention live will use it.
