What do LFSs do?

[Seachelle]

I dont blame LFS's for all mysterious new fish deaths. I'm sorry to say, and not directing at you personally, but I think that most new clownfish deaths are blamed on first-time fishkeepers. Its not the LFS job to educate people

I wasn't blaming my LFS for their death. In fact, I believe I said I had no reason to doubt them when they said it wasn't Brook and that it very well could have been something I did. The purpose of this post wasn't to assign blame or even to determine what the cause of death of my clownfish was (even though I'd love to figure that out for my own edification). I am just wondering how LFS's handle the disease that must be in their systems.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

sorry that I misunderstood and again was not directing my comment at you.

 

[Seachelle]

sorry that I misunderstood and again was not directing my comment at you.

No harm, no foul!

 

[Seachelle]

Those of you who are trying to help me figure out what happened to my clowns - many thanks! I tested my parameters when I saw they were struggling, and here's what I found:

Ammonia - 0 (Red Sea tester)
Nitrite - .05 (previously had been 0 for weeks) (Red Sea)
Nitrate - 8.2 (Hanna)
PH - 8.2 (Red Sea)
Alkalinity - 8.1 (Hanna)
Phosphate - .1 (Salifert)
Salinity 1.025 (Refractometer)

I brought the fish carcasses into the LFS to see if they could diagnose what happened, and also brought my water, which they tested. They also said my parameters were fine, and didn't think the nitrite mini-spike was anything of consequence.

Unfortunately, since the clowns were with me such a short time, I didn't get many pictures of them. The first picture is of them when they were struggling at the surface. You can see the "webbing" on the fin. This fish also had this fin clamped to its side and was not using it. The second picture is of them "well".

For a little background - I decided to start with a QT in August before I had even purchased a DT. I thought that this would help me get used to testing parameters and water keeping. After the QT cycled, I bought a huge arrow crab thinking this would be the first resident of my DT. She's been alone in there since about the end of August. In November, I saw these clowns at my LFS, and they were exactly what I wanted, and since I hadn't seen any for sale since I've started looking at reef fish, I thought I would buy them and put them in my QT. I was however, afraid of the huge arrow crab since the clowns were so small (less than 1"). So I bought a breeder box to keep them in while I waited on a tank divider. They were in the breeder box for maybe 5 days, and then I put them in the QT. They seemed fine while in the breeder box. It was after I put them in the QT that they struggled. I have a HOB filter for the QT, and I moved it over to split the flow between the arrow crab section and the clown section, but I did this after the first 2 days the clowns were in there, so it's possible that they weren't getting enough flow. The divider did have holes in it, so I thought this would be enough for air/water exchange between the 2 sides.

Thanks for any ideas you have about what might have gone wrong. The LFS has graciously said they will replace the clowns once I'm ready for more. I've started a 2nd QT, since now I'm going to have to assume my original QT has some sort of cooties, and will let that one run fallow for 3 months. I'm definitely going to QT any fish or inverts that I buy. That was my plan even before all this happened! Only now, I think rather than just observing them, I'm going to actively treat them, too.

 

[LeftyReefer]

You should assume any fish you buy could potentially be carrying diseases or parasites.

If you don't want to QT your new fish, there are some vendors that will do it for you.
You pay a higher price for the fish, but they do the medicated QT process for you.

While this also isn't 100% foolproof, I have not had any problems buying QT'd fish thus far.

After struggling to find a fish locally, and even more getting it through a full QT on my own, I finally ordered some QT'd fish from Dr. Reef and it was such a stress free process that I wouldn't hesitate to go that route again for my next fish purchase.

 

[Seachelle]

You should assume any fish you buy could potentially be carrying diseases or parasites.

If you don't want to QT your new fish, there are some vendors that will do it for you.
You pay a higher price for the fish, but they do the medicated QT process for you.

While this also isn't 100% foolproof, I have not had any problems buying QT'd fish thus far.

After struggling to find a fish locally, and even more getting it through a full QT on my own, I finally ordered some QT'd fish from Dr. Reef and it was such a stress free process that I wouldn't hesitate to go that route again for my next fish purchase.

I've heard of Dr. Reef, and I think I'm definitely going to use him when I get my higher dollar, more tempermental fish.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Those of you who are trying to help me figure out what happened to my clowns - many thanks! I tested my parameters when I saw they were struggling, and here's what I found:

Ammonia - 0 (Red Sea tester)
Nitrite - .05 (previously had been 0 for weeks) (Red Sea)
Nitrate - 8.2 (Hanna)
PH - 8.2 (Red Sea)
Alkalinity - 8.1 (Hanna)
Phosphate - .1 (Salifert)
Salinity 1.025 (Refractometer)

I brought the fish carcasses into the LFS to see if they could diagnose what happened, and also brought my water, which they tested. They also said my parameters were fine, and didn't think the nitrite mini-spike was anything of consequence.

Unfortunately, since the clowns were with me such a short time, I didn't get many pictures of them. The first picture is of them when they were struggling at the surface. You can see the "webbing" on the fin. This fish also had this fin clamped to its side and was not using it. The second picture is of them "well".

For a little background - I decided to start with a QT in August before I had even purchased a DT. I thought that this would help me get used to testing parameters and water keeping. After the QT cycled, I bought a huge arrow crab thinking this would be the first resident of my DT. She's been alone in there since about the end of August. In November, I saw these clowns at my LFS, and they were exactly what I wanted, and since I hadn't seen any for sale since I've started looking at reef fish, I thought I would buy them and put them in my QT. I was however, afraid of the huge arrow crab since the clowns were so small (less than 1"). So I bought a breeder box to keep them in while I waited on a tank divider. They were in the breeder box for maybe 5 days, and then I put them in the QT. They seemed fine while in the breeder box. It was after I put them in the QT that they struggled. I have a HOB filter for the QT, and I moved it over to split the flow between the arrow crab section and the clown section, but I did this after the first 2 days the clowns were in there, so it's possible that they weren't getting enough flow. The divider did have holes in it, so I thought this would be enough for air/water exchange between the 2 sides.

Thanks for any ideas you have about what might have gone wrong. The LFS has graciously said they will replace the clowns once I'm ready for more. I've started a 2nd QT, since now I'm going to have to assume my original QT has some sort of cooties, and will let that one run fallow for 3 months. I'm definitely going to QT any fish or inverts that I buy. That was my plan even before all this happened! Only now, I think rather than just observing them, I'm going to actively treat them, too.

Fish swimming near the surface can be an indication that they need oxygen. I don’t see a lot of surface movement in your tank. Surface movement allows for gas exchange. Maybe your fish were suffocatIng.

What is the temp of the water and do you have a vented lid or a clear solid lid?

 

[zuri]

arrow crabs hunt fish at night FWI ... research what you keep

 

[LiveFreeAndReef]

Fish swimming near the surface can be an indication that they need oxygen. I don’t see a lot of surface movement in your tank. Surface movement allows for gas exchange. Maybe your fish were suffocatIng.

What is the temp of the water and do you have a vented lid or a clear solid lid?

It's super common for clowns, and especially new clowns, to swim at the surface of the water. Its not really a sign of anything. Fish *gasping* as the surface of the water is what would indicate a low oxygen environment

 

[IslandLifeReef]

It's super common for clowns, and especially new clowns, to swim at the surface of the water. Its not really a sign of anything. Fish *gasping* as the surface of the water is what would indicate a low oxygen environment

My 30+ years of keeping clowns has shown that the only thing common in clownfish is that they all do their own thing. Fish don’t always gasp in a low oxygen environment, it depends on how low it is. Sometimes it’s a slow oxygen starvation. Again, I’ll reference the lack of significant surface movement in the still shots that were given.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

Maybe @Jay Hemdal can help more than the rest of us guessing.

 

[LiveFreeAndReef]

My 30+ years of keeping clowns has shown that the only thing common in clownfish is that they all do their own thing. Fish don’t always gasp in a low oxygen environment, it depends on how low it is. Sometimes it’s a slow oxygen starvation. Again, I’ll reference the lack of significant surface movement in the still shots that were given.

I guess I'll have to wait another decade to glean that kind of information from 2 pictures of fish in an acclimation box haha The OP did state that they're running a HOB filter on the QT tank, and there's also water falling back into the QT tank from the acclimation box (picture #2). Both are pretty good ways to keep the O2 levels up in an aquarium. In the first picture you can clearly see that one of the fish is having some kind of issue, I don't know how you skip right over that and land on an O2 issue, but what do I know ;Turtle

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I recently bought 2 clownfish from my LFS ,and unfortunately, they passed away after 8 days in my care. One of them had what looked like webbing on its fin, but other than that, I didn't see any physical abnormalities. They began swimming strangely, and seemed to stay at the surface, and within a day, they were dead. Someone on a Facebook site I posted pictures to said it looked like Brook. When I contacted the LFS to ask what I should do to treat it, they told me they doubted it was brook, since they hadn't had a lot of fish dying, and with the shared system their tanks run on, if one tank had Brook, they all would. The only other inhabitants of the QT I had my clownfish in were an arrow crab, which I've had in there for over 3 months, and 2 snails. The LFS suggested that the fish died from chemical burns. It is entirely possible that I might have put my hands in the tank with lotion on or sprayed something near the tank. I have no reason to doubt what they're saying about not having Brook, but it made me think, how do LFSs deal with getting serious diseases or parasites? If you have to run your tanks fallow for 3 months after having Brook or Velvet, I'm sure a LFS can't afford to do that. If things are running on a shared system, it wouldn't just be a matter of changing out one or two tanks. They'd also have to change or disinfect the whole sump system. With the number of people I see on R2R who have had serious diseases, I imagine LFSs must have them on a regular basis. Does anyone know how they deal with these issues?

Unlikely that was a result of “chemical burns” since invertebrates are almost always more sensitive than fish are to toxins. If you post a picture, I might be able to hazard a guess. From your description, it does sound like it could have been Brooklynella.

I used to manage a large aquarium store back in the early 80’s. I’m not really enthralled with how many LFS handle their fish nowadays. Low salinity and low dose copper is how many of them forestall problems while the fish are in their tanks, but then the fish often crash when sold to a hobbyist.
Jay

 

[RedReefer]

So basically, unless the LFS treats and QT all their fish, you should assume they have something, be it ich, Brook or Velvet?

Yes, I always copper treat and QT every fish prior to adding them to the display. If I buy local or online the hospital tank gets setup. It's a pain and long waiting period. I have only lost two fish in four years. It was due to velvet from a fish I had been watching at the local fish store for three weeks. No signs of disease almost 30 days of. I added the fish straight to my display and all fish in the display had velvet in 24- 48 hours. That was my last fish I've added without QT.

 

[Joe462]

I recently bought 2 clownfish from my LFS ,and unfortunately, they passed away after 8 days in my care. One of them had what looked like webbing on its fin, but other than that, I didn't see any physical abnormalities. They began swimming strangely, and seemed to stay at the surface, and within a day, they were dead. Someone on a Facebook site I posted pictures to said it looked like Brook. When I contacted the LFS to ask what I should do to treat it, they told me they doubted it was brook, since they hadn't had a lot of fish dying, and with the shared system their tanks run on, if one tank had Brook, they all would. The only other inhabitants of the QT I had my clownfish in were an arrow crab, which I've had in there for over 3 months, and 2 snails. The LFS suggested that the fish died from chemical burns. It is entirely possible that I might have put my hands in the tank with lotion on or sprayed something near the tank. I have no reason to doubt what they're saying about not having Brook, but it made me think, how do LFSs deal with getting serious diseases or parasites? If you have to run your tanks fallow for 3 months after having Brook or Velvet, I'm sure a LFS can't afford to do that. If things are running on a shared system, it wouldn't just be a matter of changing out one or two tanks. They'd also have to change or disinfect the whole sump system. With the number of people I see on R2R who have had serious diseases, I imagine LFSs must have them on a regular basis. Does anyone know how they deal with these issues?

at your run of the mill/slightly shady LFS they just try to sell the fish before they die in their care.

 

[MONTANTK]

I worked at my LFS for years and we had quite a few different fish systems. The main system consisted of 6 large tanks where we kept our salinity at 1.018. We also kept copper in the system and ran UV sterilizers. Any sick fish from those systems were put into a separate QT system. Two of the other systems is where most issues rose. We ran those just as regular tanks because sensitive fish and inverts were put in them. We had a few Brooknella outbreaks from clowns and we would mark an X on the tank so nothing would be sold from them. The fish were pulled and treated as needed. We generally left them empty (other than inverts) for about 4-6 weeks and never had any issues after.

In my experience our practices were rather unique. Most stores I visit do not have the same practices if an outbreak occurs. FWIW, Brooknella is highly contagious amongst clownfish and your LFS likely would have experience an outbreak of their own

 

[Seachelle]

Unlikely that was a result of “chemical burns” since invertebrates are almost always more sensitive than fish are to toxins. If you post a picture, I might be able to hazard a guess. From your description, it does sound like it could have been Brooklynella.

I used to manage a large aquarium store back in the early 80’s. I’m not really enthralled with how many LFS handle their fish nowadays. Low salinity and low dose copper is how many of them forestall problems while the fish are in their tanks, but then the fish often crash when sold to a hobbyist.
Jay

Hi Jay, thanks for your reply. Ive attached the best picture I have of the suspect fin. The other fish had no visible physical signs but it was the first to die.

If LFSs are constantly running low doses of copper in their tanks, could they be creating copper resistant diseases? Like happens with antibiotics?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

There are already reports of copper resistant ich secondary to sub therapeutic dosing.

 

[Seachelle]

I worked at my LFS for years and we had quite a few different fish systems. The main system consisted of 6 large tanks where we kept our salinity at 1.018. We also kept copper in the system and ran UV sterilizers. Any sick fish from those systems were put into a separate QT system. Two of the other systems is where most issues rose. We ran those just as regular tanks because sensitive fish and inverts were put in them. We had a few Brooknella outbreaks from clowns and we would mark an X on the tank so nothing would be sold from them. The fish were pulled and treated as needed. We generally left them empty (other than inverts) for about 4-6 weeks and never had any issues after.

In my experience our practices were rather unique. Most stores I visit do not have the same practices if an outbreak occurs. FWIW, Brooknella is highly contagious amongst clownfish and your LFS likely would have experience an outbreak of their own

It does sound like your store was doing the responsible thing and trying to treat sick fish. It's too bad so many stores now seem to care about the money over the fish's welfare.

 

[Spieg]

So basically, unless the LFS treats and QT all their fish, you should assume they have something, be it ich, Brook or Velvet?

These days, I assume all fish have some form of parasite regardless of where they come from. Even the ones who claim to quarantine have been known to sell fish that are carrying something.