What do YOU want to know?

[Humblefish]

@Highgrade Unfortunately, I think this is an issue that will either "self correct" in time or it won't. Like with that YT in the thread you linked.

What SG is the fish currently at in QT?

 

[Highgrade]

@Highgrade Unfortunately, I think this is an issue that will either "self correct" in time or it won't. Like with that YT in the thread you linked.

What SG is the fish currently at in QT?

Currently at 1.025 in the QT and Display tank. My guess is due to the heavy evaporation I experience and the ATO sensor getting stuck the salinity jump happened in a matter of 2 days.

 

[Humblefish]

Currently at 1.025 in the QT and Display tank. My guess is due to the heavy evaporation I experience and the ATO sensor getting stuck the salinity jump happened in a matter of 2 days.

I would slowly lower both the temperature (to 74) and SG (to 1.015) in his QT. May or may not help, but it will provide more available oxygen in the water and reduce the metabolic demands on his body.

 

[Highgrade]

I would slowly lower both the temperature (to 74) and SG (to 1.015) in his QT. May or may not help, but it will provide more available oxygen in the water and reduce the metabolic demands on his body.

Sounds like a plan. Thank you for the knowledge!

 

[FishGuyBri]

That would be an awesome resource @Brew12 ! I had a clown die of a mysterious lesion/bubble on its side and did a complete exam. Took more hours of researching how to do stuff then to perform the procedure.

Had to research:

• How to put a fish to sleep (was afraid I would have to resort to this but it passed quickly)
• Fresh water dip
• How to store fish until I could perform the procedure
• Fish anatomy (and even then I could not find anything on clown fish)
• How to open the fish
• How to do a scale scrape
  
• Gram stain
• What to look for under the microscope with a scale scrape
• Gill clippings
• Internal parasites (and checking digestive system for parasites)

This is awesome. I have a scope and would like to learn what I'm looking for in the event this happens... I'm watching for more!

 

[melypr1985]

I'm bumping this for more ideas! What are we missing that will help you with your sick fish or to keep them from getting that way? Look through the stickies and articles... we've done quite a bit, but we want to make sure you have everything you need to be successful!

 

[leahfiish]

Is there anything that we could do to help with research or contributing to knowledge? For example, with wrasses and cp, anecdotal evidence says that's a bad combo, but I remember someone (humblefish?) saying they talked to a lfs that treats their wrasses on cp with no problem. Is there anything we, as members, can do to help clear up this topic? Surely the collective knowledge and resources to of r2r will be able to contribute something. Or are there guidelines for how to perform further research, not only on this topic, but others? This was just the first idea that came to mind.

 

[melypr1985]

Is there anything that we could do to help with research or contributing to knowledge? For example, with wrasses and cp, anecdotal evidence says that's a bad combo, but I remember someone (humblefish?) saying they talked to a lfs that treats their wrasses on cp with no problem. Is there anything we, as members, can do to help clear up this topic? Surely the collective knowledge and resources to of r2r will be able to contribute something. Or are there guidelines for how to perform further research, not only on this topic, but others? This was just the first idea that came to mind.

I love the enthusiasm here. If you want to take on the risk and are able to the the prescription for CP, then give it a try and let us know how it goes. You'll want to document everything from day one.... behaviors, amounts dosed into how many gallons. Pretty much everything. It would add data to what we already know - or think we know. More information is always good.

I don't suggest taking this on without plenty of research, help and experience though. It's not something you want to try on your first or second try at QT ya know?

 

[leahfiish]

I love the enthusiasm here. If you want to take on the risk and are able to the the prescription for CP, then give it a try and let us know how it goes. You'll want to document everything from day one.... behaviors, amounts dosed into how many gallons. Pretty much everything. It would add data to what we already know - or think we know. More information is always good.

I don't suggest taking this on without plenty of research, help and experience though. It's not something you want to try on your first or second try at QT ya know?

Yeah I'm definitely not ready for it right now... But, I do work at an lfs that has limited qt options so I have considered taking fish home before to treat them. But it's going to have to wait until I get some fish in my own tank first.

Also, that was just the first topic that came to mind, since there's seemed like there was very very little anecdotal evidence, so it seemed to me like further testing should be done. But I'm sure there's others that could use further research as well?

 

[Humblefish]

Is there anything that we could do to help with research or contributing to knowledge? For example, with wrasses and cp, anecdotal evidence says that's a bad combo, but I remember someone (humblefish?) saying they talked to a lfs that treats their wrasses on cp with no problem. Is there anything we, as members, can do to help clear up this topic? Surely the collective knowledge and resources to of r2r will be able to contribute something. Or are there guidelines for how to perform further research, not only on this topic, but others? This was just the first idea that came to mind.

I'm glad you brought this up. I'm currently living in hotels, unable to QT, and would really like for someone to begin experimenting with hydrogen peroxide for fish disease purposes. Specifically:

1. To date, the best treatment protocol I have found for velvet is: 5 min FW dip + 90 min acriflavine bath + 10 days in CP (or copper), followed by transfer into a sterile HT. (Or 30 days in copper or CP if you don't have a second QT to work with.) What if we used H2O2 in lieu of acriflavine? Both are antiseptics designed to ward off infection.
2. Due to antibiotics slow acting nature, I'm beginning to believe that antibiotics alone are not the best way to treat bacterial infections in fish. The fish needs immediate relief... "first aid" via an acriflavine or H2O2 bath before being placed into a QT dosed with antibiotics.
3. I've had some success doing an acriflavine bath, followed by transfer into a sterile QT, to treat brook in clownfish. (Although sometimes multiple baths are required to completely knock it out, so a formalin bath is still the treatment of choice for brook.) How well would an H2O2 bath (or even in-tank treatment) work for treating Brooklynella?

I know some have already been using H2O2 to treat velvet and for other purposes (with mixed results), but I would prefer a more conservative approach that is well documented. Let's see what benefits this chemical can offer as an antiseptic and then go from there. This way we have something to fall back on if dosing H202 in your reef tank doesn't cure velvet and other diseases. Using 3% H2O2 (most commonly available), I believe @twilliard advised me to dose 1 ml (or 1/5 teaspoon) per gallon and start out by only doing a 30 minute bath in that solution. Of course, this is only a starting point and we could ramp up the dosage/duration if the desired results were not achieved. However, if a fish were to die then it would be optimal to use a microscope to examine gill plates and skin to look for evidence of oxidizing damage.

The benefit of using H202 over something like acriflavine is clear, as the former can be sourced at any drug store or Walmart 24/7/365. And when a fish has velvet, he needs treatment NOW. Below are links which mention using H202 to treat velvet and other diseases:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa157

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.htm

http://agrilife.org/fisheries/files...mportant-Parasite-of-Cultured-Marine-Fish.pdf

http://www.ultimatereef.com/articles/marinevelvet/

 

[leahfiish]

I'm glad you brought this up. I'm currently living in hotels, unable to QT, and would really like for someone to begin experimenting with hydrogen peroxide for fish disease purposes. Specifically:

1. To date, the best treatment protocol I have found for velvet is: 5 min FW dip + 90 min acriflavine bath + 10 days in CP (or copper), followed by transfer into a sterile HT. (Or 30 days in copper or CP if you don't have a second QT to work with.) What if we used H2O2 in lieu of acriflavine? Both are antiseptics designed to ward off infection.
2. Due to antibiotics slow acting nature, I'm beginning to believe that antibiotics alone are not the best way to treat bacterial infections in fish. The fish needs immediate relief... "first aid" via an acriflavine or H2O2 bath before being placed into a QT dosed with antibiotics.
3. I've had some success doing an acriflavine bath, followed by transfer into a sterile QT, to treat brook in clownfish. (Although sometimes multiple baths are required to completely knock it out, so a formalin bath is still the treatment of choice for brook.) How well would an H2O2 bath (or even in-tank treatment) work for treating Brooklynella?

I know some have already been using H2O2 to treat velvet and for other purposes (with mixed results), but I would prefer a more conservative approach that is well documented. Let's see what benefits this chemical can offer as an antiseptic and then go from there. This way we have something to fall back on if dosing H202 in your reef tank doesn't cure velvet and other diseases. Using 3% H2O2 (most commonly available), I believe @twilliard advised me to dose 1 ml (or 1/5 teaspoon) per gallon and start out by only doing a 30 minute bath in that solution. Of course, this is only a starting point and we could ramp up the dosage/duration if the desired results were not achieved. However, if a fish were to die then it would be optimal to use a microscope to examine gill plates and skin to look for evidence of oxidizing damage.

The benefit of using H202 over something like acriflavine is clear, as the former can be sourced at any drug store or Walmart 24/7/365. And when a fish has velvet, he needs treatment NOW. Below are links which mention using H202 to treat velvet and other diseases:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa157

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.htm

http://agrilife.org/fisheries/files...mportant-Parasite-of-Cultured-Marine-Fish.pdf

http://www.ultimatereef.com/articles/marinevelvet/

Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. I'll have to do some further reading.

Also for microscopes. I would like to know: what kind of microscope i would need and where to buy it, what it can be used for, how to prepare a gill scrape or whatever kind of sample I would need, what exactly I'm looking for, and any other reef keeping uses a microscope might have.

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. I'll have to do some further reading.

Also for microscopes. I would like to know: what kind of microscope i would need and where to buy it, what it can be used for, how to prepare a gill scrape or whatever kind of sample I would need, what exactly I'm looking for, and any other reef keeping uses a microscope might have.

The one I have in storage isn't the greatest: https://www.amazon.com/Celestron-LCD-Deluxe-Digital-Microscope/dp/B00369V2E0/

However, my wife is currently researching which "professional grade" microscope we should buy for the business, so I'll let you know once she settles on one. (I don't have the time to read every review like she does. Besides we all know women are better than men when it comes to researching something to buy. )

This guide will provide the basics on how to perform a skin scrape: http://www.aquariadise.com/checking-aquarium-fish-parasites/

I've got a much more thorough guide on my desktop (in storage) I can send you once we get settled.

FYI; this book is THE BIBLE when it comes to everything fish disease related: http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0813806976.html

 

[twilliard]

Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. I'll have to do some further reading.

Also for microscopes. I would like to know: what kind of microscope i would need and where to buy it, what it can be used for, how to prepare a gill scrape or whatever kind of sample I would need, what exactly I'm looking for, and any other reef keeping uses a microscope might have.

Ahhh person can get into some great detail when it comes to scopes. Look at a scope with a wide range of magnification. For instance I can go 40 to 2500 power with my 100x oil optic. Then you have dark field and acromatic to think about. Phase inverse is another. Good pictures or viewing means good optics. Watch your eyepiece magnification also. 10 and 25X are good starters.

 

[leahfiish]

The one I have in storage isn't the greatest: https://www.amazon.com/Celestron-LCD-Deluxe-Digital-Microscope/dp/B00369V2E0/

However, my wife is currently researching which "professional grade" microscope we should buy for the business, so I'll let you know once she settles on one. (I don't have the time to read every review like she does. Besides we all know women are better than men when it comes to researching something to buy. )

This guide will provide the basics on how to perform a skin scrape: http://www.aquariadise.com/checking-aquarium-fish-parasites/

I've got a much more thorough guide on my desktop (in storage) I can send you once we get settled.

FYI; this book is THE BIBLE when it comes to everything fish disease related: http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0813806976.html

That one is a bit out of my price range...
But that link on the skin scrapes was helpful.
And that's not the first time I've seen that book recommended. I'll put it on my birthday list.

Ahhh person can get into some great detail when it comes to scopes. Look at a scope with a wide range of magnification. For instance I can go 40 to 2500 power with my 100x oil optic. Then you have dark field and acromatic to think about. Phase inverse is another. Good pictures or viewing means good optics. Watch your eyepiece magnification also. 10 and 25X are good starters.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll see what I can find when I get home.

 

[twilliard]

In my signature you will find a link to amscope. A great place to buy and build your own scope.

 

[mcarroll]

Here's something else that would be cool to have for reference:

microscopic images of the different types of parasites (the most common ones like ich thermonts, flukes, brook slime, worms, etc.)

+1 – University of Florida's guides do have photos of the most common ones like Crypto and Amyloodinium.
For example.... FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot ...

I've been meaning to do this for quite some time.

+1

I think you should put up pictures of various fish with various diseases and describe the symptoms they have while they are alive and what happened just before they died along with what they looked like just after they died.

+1

Velvet seems to be running rampant right now

I've seen this repeated online more than once like it was nationwide, but haven't seen it locally.

I'm about as far from suppliers as you can get and it's the wrong time of year for shipments. Shouldn't we be seeing this too????

I probably could do that. But I would need to know the ABSOLUTE CORRECT answer.

I like the idea, but the challenge to getting the absolute correct answer is that you very often need to know the absolute correct question to ask. It's hard to know the right question in a lot of situations, so that means the answerer is likely to be at a disadvantage.

I like the idea of a public FAQ section though....sort of the same idea?

Seems like you'd have to allow for some back and forth one way or another, but there are ways the answers can be pretty darned correct.

That is a great idea. I may take this one on. A procedure based on an "unknown" death. Maybe tailoring it to different hobbyists experience levels up to, and including, using a microscope for gill clippings.

Scopes are so cheap these days, wouldn't it be cool if every fish owner considered them standard equipment?

Like a collar and leash for your dog.

I'd love to see that come to pass...

This is awesome. I have a scope and would like to learn what I'm looking for in the event this happens... I'm watching for more!

+1

Below are links which mention using H202 to treat velvet and other diseases:

+1

You might add this link from U of Fl as well:
FA157/FA157: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide in Finfish Aquaculture

It does mention specific velvet treatments and cites a few actual studies for further interest.
Equally important, it also covers all aspects of H2O2 usage outside of the aspects particular to velvet. Other diseases. safety. Etc.

Maybe this too:
(I don't know why U of Fl doesn't seem to be hosting their own Velvet guide anymore, but here's a link to another souce for it VM90: Amyloodinium Infections of Marine Fish

I've got a much more thorough guide on my desktop (in storage) I can send you once we get settled.

Love to see this in public form when possible!

 

[mcarroll]

For my own part, I'd like to see this (or the ideas from it) posted somewhere nice:

Circular 919/FA005: Stress - Its Role in Fish Disease​

Most folks I've talked with seem to think stress is too ambiguous of a topic, or they may not consider all the aspects of it.

It's actually not so ambiguous, but it is a pretty comprehensive topic....so it's (another) good place for a good guide.

Here are that guide's headlines, just for a quick look, but I'd encourage everyone to read it:
(each headline has a paragraph or so in the doc, so it's not long)

What Causes Stress?

Chemical Stressors
Biological Stressors
Physical Stressors
Procedural Stressors
Alarm Reaction ("Fight or Flight" Response)
Resistance
Exhaustion ​

What Is Disease?

Disease Resistance
Defense Against Disease

Protective Barriers against Infection
Effect of Stress on Protective Barriers​

Mucus
Scales and Skin
Inflammation
Antibody Production​

Prevention of Stress
Prevention of Disease

 

[Valkyrie]

Scopes are so cheap these days, wouldn't it be cool if every fish owner considered them standard equipment?

Yes. It would be extremely cool.
Since I'm working toward my LVT specialty "Clinical Pathology" I've been considering a host of different scopes. Of course, I would use it for my fish as well! LOL

This is the one I like so far.
https://www.amazon.com/AmScope-T490B-Magnification-Illumination-High-Resolution/dp/B004QEFO1Q

 

[mcarroll]

Nice! I saw someone else here pick a similar scope (so far as I can tell....don't know scopes) and was raving and showing off some great sample pics and vids. (It was an algae thread tho, not fish disease.)

 

[dede]

That would be an awesome resource @Brew12 ! I had a clown die of a mysterious lesion/bubble on its side and did a complete exam. Took more hours of researching how to do stuff then to perform the procedure.

Had to research:

• How to put a fish to sleep (was afraid I would have to resort to this but it passed quickly)
• Fresh water dip
• How to store fish until I could perform the procedure
• Fish anatomy (and even then I could not find anything on clown fish)
• How to open the fish
• How to do a scale scrape
  
• Gram stain
• What to look for under the microscope with a scale scrape
• Gill clippings
• Internal parasites (and checking digestive system for parasites)

Can you do a how to on this or provide good links, all I find is on larger fresh water fish.