What goes into the new tank first? Corals or Fish?

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Picos are awesome and the biodiversity on the coral plugs alone with the coral’s own biomes are enough to keep them thriving if you’re good about feeding them to keep them happy. Larger systems just don’t balance out as well. I also put corals in first now and have learned where to tweak to make it work but it definitely takes a lot of work and attention in a large system to be able to do effectively.

I agree. Its hard to do consistent large water changes. Thats why dosing, equipment for nutrient export like skimmers and such are needed. If it is feasable the large water changes weekly would be the same as smaller tanks. I had larger tanks and was just to much to maintain for me.

 

[OrionN]

It really does not matter what go in when as long as the tank is established and the bioload won’t knock it out of balance. The important thing that decide the order if the interactions between the animals.
To determine this we just need to know the animals we want to keep.

 

[Gumbies R Us]

I did fish first, probably will keep doing that

 

[AydenLincoln]

I hate to break it to you
The Oxford English Dictionary says a reef is a long line of rocks or sand near the surface of the sea.

Also - do your homework.

Bacteria isn’t in the water
It’s on The rocks.

Hence why you can take rocks from an established tank and start a new tank BAM! No cycle!

Also go do research of what corals eat.


You probably won’t.

Stop acting like you know it all

You really don’t understand my comments. Oh well.

 

[Timfish]

Yes. To establish microbiomes for corals you need maricultured or wild live rock (and sand helps too), corals and corals need fish to provide nitrogen and especially phosphorus. Maricultured or wild live rock provides beneficial "stuff", especially cryptic sponges that process labile DOC. All this needs to go in in the first 24 hours after water is added. Obviously, hardy species should be used initially but the should be related to the more delicate species preffered for the mature system

 

[brandon429]

A question for advocates of fish first cycling:

Do you recommend the masses do it that way or is that reserved just for you because it has been working

How would you describe the disease outbreak control ability of res publica to default to fish- first stock order in 99.999999999999% of setups

Is there any tie whatsoever to fish- first stocking + disease loss rates in our hobby or do you find them unrelated matters?

The focus isn't on the tank of a fish first advocate

The focus is on what's best as a default mode for ten thousand new reefers we're going to instantly cycle this year, the outside perspective

I noticed all examples are about someone's tank at home, their best practice

Reverse that: what's best for the masses? What should be the default mode we're trained on?

 

[Reefing_addiction]

A question for advocates of fish first cycling:

Do you recommend the masses do it that way or is that reserved just for you because it has been working

How would you describe the disease outbreak control ability of res publica to default to fish- first stock order in 99.999999999999% of setups

Is there any tie whatsoever to fish- first stocking + disease loss rates in our hobby or do you find them unrelated matters?

The focus isn't on the tank of a fish first advocate

The focus is on what's best as a default mode for ten thousand new reefers we're going to instantly cycle this year, the outside perspective

I noticed all examples are about someone's tank at home, their best practice

Reverse that: what's best for the masses? What should be the default mode we're trained on?

Hey got a pic of your tank?


And there is no such thing as best practices.

Obviously either way works
What’s best for you is best for you!

 

[Troylee]

A question for advocates of fish first cycling:

Do you recommend the masses do it that way or is that reserved just for you because it has been working

How would you describe the disease outbreak control ability of res publica to default to fish- first stock order in 99.999999999999% of setups

Is there any tie whatsoever to fish- first stocking + disease loss rates in our hobby or do you find them unrelated matters?

The focus isn't on the tank of a fish first advocate

The focus is on what's best as a default mode for ten thousand new reefers we're going to instantly cycle this year, the outside perspective

I noticed all examples are about someone's tank at home, their best practice

Reverse that: what's best for the masses? What should be the default mode we're trained on?

Buy live rock, add what ever you want and don’t qt anything and your tank will thrive.. I’m changing my name to wrekless reefer! That’s how I’ve always rolled and never had a problem but brook once and that was easily cured with ruby rally pro..

 

[Cell]

If I have to choose I'd pick fish because coral benefit from fish byproduct but not vice versa.

 

[brandon429]

people can do fish first, if they run a separate dual fallowing receiving tank for each new batch of entrants.

are the masses willing to do that effort? heck no

so, pricing is what hopefully will eventually force some change. when tangs cost $1200 I'll be laughing from a non-tang consumer's perspective. the public will be forced to value longevity over availability. fish stocking order of ops taught to the masses will matter then, that's my prediction.

the public will seek out quarantined sources for reef inverts and corals and rocks just like they do for fish once the importance of vector control sinks in to the masses. they will do anything to avoid the work involved. currently, that means just skipping all preps for the masses. wingin' it.

that's how we've arrived at todays untenable and massive early loss rates in captive marine fish

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

After being in this hobby for so long, and researching the way people setup tanks seems backwards to me. We feed the tank to establish bacteria sometimes with fish food. Then we get the fish that only adds nutrients. These nutrients are used as well from fish to feed the invisible coral. Then we get the coral and then worry about biodiversity. So it goes feed invisible fish, feed invisble coral, feed invisible biodiversity. Eventually these all are established in this way as well but seems less efficient.

To me it should be add live rocks, sand and or coral which helps to establish biodiversity and brings in bacteria. Then you can feed coral and add fish that feeds coral. Then feed fish.

There are plenty of succesful tanks that are succesful fish first.

 

[Cell]

I buy dog food before buying the dog so I'm ready for it.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

I buy dog food before buying the dog so I'm ready for it.

But you dont feed the dog until you have it. But yes. Should have what you need vefore starting.

 

[Troylee]

people can do fish first, if they run a separate dual fallowing receiving tank for each new batch of entrants.

are the masses willing to do that effort? heck no

so, pricing is what hopefully will eventually force some change. when tangs cost $1200 I'll be laughing from a non-tang consumer's perspective. the public will be forced to value longevity over availability. fish stocking order of ops taught to the masses will matter then, that's my prediction.

the public will seek out quarantined sources for reef inverts and corals and rocks just like they do for fish once the importance of vector control sinks in to the masses. they will do anything to avoid the work involved. currently, that means just skipping all preps for the masses. wingin' it.

that's how we've arrived at todays untenable and massive early loss rates in captive marine fish

Is it? Or is it the poor collection practices since the Hawaii ban and no regulations on other countries?

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Is it? Or is it the poor collection practices since the Hawaii ban and no regulations on other countries?

Its a mix of both i believe. Most disease that live in ocean are few and far between with ich and such. They are predated on and ocean so vast with tons of fish, that if they do have it will jist be a sppt here or there and gone next cycle. The ones that are collected that do have some sort of tiny amoint of parasite, disease or bug, are now thrown into an enclosed system where these issues multiply and because being in closed space, have access to every single fish in the system. Since fish cant swim to different areas like in the open, the concentration is higher. Im sure you see where this is going lol. So now shipped from collector to wholeseller. Now those are closed systems. The to LFS. Then to our tanks. Ontop of stress which lowers immune they are more susceptable.

 

[brandon429]

in 2006 I didn't know anyone who had disease issues at todays rate and nobody was doing fallow and quarantine for home systems that I knew of

unacceptable results have driven us to closer match at home what zoos do so their multimillion dollar fish exhibits don't keel over

but the results aren't so unacceptable yet as to drive down incidence of fish-first stocking, the clear winner in any order of ops poll, even though its the #1 disease-driving habit regardless of etiology. it'll take $1200 dollar tangs and $650 wrasses to drive the public into compliance.

a self-directed study in the disease forum before owning fish is now an ethical requirement in reefing. the cycling part is already long thought out so the buyers don't have to.

how anyone could conduct a self-directed study in the disease forum and come away with the acceptance that stocking years worth of corals, inverts and rocks and other decor from pet stores into our home, as we build the reef around fish-is beyond me. they're flat out skipping the reading, or going solely on their own home results if they feel all people should stock fish-first.

 

[Cell]

We have to factor in how many more people are on the internet and social media sharing experiences compared to the early 2000's. R2R was founded in 2006, I think.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

I noticed all examples are about someone's tank at home, their best practice

This was/is actually the intended focus of this thread. Not that the other questions posed aren't good ones, but they aren't really the focus of why i started this discussion. I'll explain my goal for this thread.

I've always done it this way:
Step 1: Rock, sand, and water
Step 2: cycle with bottled bac and fish food (fishless cycle)
Step 3: After cycle (usually a couple of weeks) add fish
Step 4: Wait a few months and add coral (ok...sometimes I added sooner, but I did wait...)

This (at least from what I've seen) is conventional wisdom of how a reef tank is set up.

However, I've been finding some really nice tanks that started with coral first, and the theory that those reefers propose actually makes a lot of sense to me. So I'm considering trying this in my new reef.

The goal of this thread was just to get people talking about this and sharing experiences. I hope most of us realize that either way can and has worked for lots of people. So this isn't really about finding a "right way". It's more of a "Hey, I do it this way... how do you do it?" kind of discussion.

My own philosophy on reefing is that there are 1,001 ways to successfully keep a reef tank. I would rather we learn from those who do it differently rather than being critical. When I find someone who reefs differently than I do, I always find it interesting and kind of just want to sit, listen, and give kudos for thinking about things differently than I do. Haha!

IMO the diversity of methodology is one of the fun things about reefing!

Oh, and best practice is to be sure you add water before livestock.

 

[tbrown]

I buy dog food before buying the dog so I'm ready for it.

I buy candy bars when I'm at the register because they look yummy. Impulse buys baby!

 

[steveschuerger]

I buy candy bars when I'm at the register because they look yummy. Impulse buys baby!

Yeah , I never regret those impulse buys lol. Until my wife sees them at least.