What happened to the hobby?

[rushbattle]

LOL. My other hobby is high end (yes, not a term exclusive to reefing) audio ..... my tube amplifier recently blew a $20 capacitor .... by the time I had paid to ship the 80 pound monstrosity (it’s just a mono amp, too) to and from the manufacturer in CA I was out close to a grand. Sadly, electronics are a big mystery to me.

Oh bummer, what amps do you have? Big power supply caps are usually super easy to swap. I have some Manley monos that are just a few philips head bolts, it’s a few minutes to swap including taking the bottom covers off.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Coral mariculture and wild harvest in Indo and Fiji is estimated to have supplied up to 90% of all corals in the trade.

How did you come up with this number?

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I am unsure why people in business selling at what the market can bear in a luxury hobby are considered greedy.

If the market could bear it, why are threads like this pop up every week?

 

[ca1ore]

Oh bummer, what amps do you have? Big power supply caps are usually super easy to swap. I have some Manley monos that are just a few philips head bolts, it’s a few minutes to swap including taking the bottom covers off.

Similar. VTL, also a Manley company. Wasn’t a power cap; something inside on the circuit board I think.

 

[sde1500]

LOL, no. I'm saying there is no shortage. So, no hoarding or anything like that. Pure marketing and a public not savvy enough to see through it.

So Fiji and Indo ban, and the subsequent rise in coral is a marketing scheme?

Except the frags are all the same size and I wasn't including shipping. And how is a 300% increase similar? And where did you get your 90% number? The OP asked why corals are so over-priced and I am giving my take on it. I didn't realize you were trying to change my mind.

No, but congrats you used the tools the free market gave you to find information on what you were buying. Found various prices and determined the best one. Thus proving my point. You’re acting like this is all some wild coordinated marketing scheme. Yet prices vary wildly vendor to vendor.

Industry Under Assault

Industry Under Assault This has been a difficult year for the marine aquarium trade. The supply of corals, anemones, and some fish are becoming extremely limited and prices will rise significantly. MAC TERZICH, DVM, ACPV Export bans in Indonesia, Fiji, and Hawaii have caused a seismic shift in...

pacificeastaquaculture.com

How did you come up with this number?

Industry Under Assault

Industry Under Assault This has been a difficult year for the marine aquarium trade. The supply of corals, anemones, and some fish are becoming extremely limited and prices will rise significantly. MAC TERZICH, DVM, ACPV Export bans in Indonesia, Fiji, and Hawaii have caused a seismic shift in...

pacificeastaquaculture.com

If the market could bear it, why are threads like this pop up every week?

I’d say that the dozen or two people that contribute the majority to the weekly whine here don’t represent the market accurately. Especially when contrasted with participants in some of the live sale threads here.

 

[Thales]

If the market could bear it, why are threads like this pop up every week?

Because people posting on forums are not representative of the whole market. Also, KickIch threads also pop up every week, but that doesn’t mean the product works.

 

[Joedubyk]

One thing I find interesting is people spend large amounts on frags expecting every little piece to survive long term. As all of us know your system will dictate what will survival and what will not, not everything will survive long term. Personally I don't buy online corals, way too much headache with doctored pictures and sky high prices. I have a core group of local people I buy/trade with and we are each others insurance policy. If one tanks crashes then we can help rebuild because we have all the corals from his original setup. Local clubs are definitely the best way to acquire corals.

People complaining about high prices forget one big thing: the high price corals are the pretty ones. Sure, a torch may cost $300 a head, but you already know why. It is because it is prettier than a common green torch. If you want a green torch, there are ones that are $50 or less per head. Just get that green head and let another person have a prettier orange/gold one. Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but I bet the majority of the eyes would agree on which one is better looking and more desirable.
Sure, corals were cheaper in the old days, but there are much less colorful corals then they are today. It is not that these pretty corals suddenly appeared on Earth recently, but it is because there are more collectors and more advanced collectors that bring us more colorful corals. Supply and demand folks. If everyone wants the prettiest corals, then we would not have any ordinary corals in our tank.

Yep!!!! My HW colony is the nicest looking colony in my tank. It may cost a lot just for a frag, but is anyone going to argue there isn't massive difference between that and a green slimer? lol

 

[fcmatt]

The LFS store can sell red monti cap for 10 bucks because customers bring it in and get 3 dollars in trade per frag. LFS marks it up 300%. Pretty simple. It grows like a weed and local reefers want anything for it besides trashing it.

 

[sarcophytonIndy]

Yep!!!! My HW colony is the nicest looking colony in my tank. It may cost a lot just for a frag, but is anyone going to argue there isn't massive difference between that and a green slimer? lol

I have achieve a very colorful DT by mixing and matching a lot of differently colored ordinary corals.

 

[flsalty]

The LFS store can sell red monti cap for 10 bucks because customers bring it in and get 3 dollars in trade per frag. LFS marks it up 300%. Pretty simple. It grows like a weed and local reefers want anything for it besides trashing it.

Actually, this LFS has it growing in a display tank so I think they frag it themselves.

Yep!!!! My HW colony is the nicest looking colony in my tank. It may cost a lot just for a frag, but is anyone going to argue there isn't massive difference between that and a green slimer? lol

Well they are different species for one...lol

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

So Fiji and Indo ban, and the subsequent rise in coral is a marketing scheme?

No, but congrats you used the tools the free market gave you to find information on what you were buying. Found various prices and determined the best one. Thus proving my point. You’re acting like this is all some wild coordinated marketing scheme. Yet prices vary wildly vendor to vendor.

Industry Under Assault

Industry Under Assault This has been a difficult year for the marine aquarium trade. The supply of corals, anemones, and some fish are becoming extremely limited and prices will rise significantly. MAC TERZICH, DVM, ACPV Export bans in Indonesia, Fiji, and Hawaii have caused a seismic shift in...

pacificeastaquaculture.com

Industry Under Assault

Industry Under Assault This has been a difficult year for the marine aquarium trade. The supply of corals, anemones, and some fish are becoming extremely limited and prices will rise significantly. MAC TERZICH, DVM, ACPV Export bans in Indonesia, Fiji, and Hawaii have caused a seismic shift in...

pacificeastaquaculture.com

I’d say that the dozen or two people that contribute the majority to the weekly whine here don’t represent the market accurately. Especially when contrasted with participants in some of the live sale threads here.

I think you're referring to this part of the article:

It is estimated that up to 90% of the corals for aquariums worldwide had originated from Fiji and Indonesia combined.

It's not saying 90% of daily corals sales were coming from Indo, it states that 90% of corals in the hobby trade came from Indo. The fact that they closed down exports doesn't mean that we will see 90% loss of supply. One can argue that the hobbyist can sustain the coral demand without using the indo ban as an excuse to justify outrageous prices. I still hold strong to my point, that people are using the indo ban as a way to market to the hobbyists higher prices. When any logical thinking person can see right through it.

 

[MnFish1]

I think you're referring to this part of the article:



It's not saying 90% of daily corals sales were coming from Indo, it states that 90% of corals in the hobby trade came from Indo. The fact that they closed down exports doesn't mean that we will see 90% loss of supply. One can argue that the hobbyist can sustain the coral demand without using the indo ban as an excuse to justify outrageous prices. I still hold strong to my point, that people are using the indo ban as a way to market to the hobbyists higher prices. When any logical thinking person can see right through it.

I agree with this 'long-term'. short term it was major problem. Lets pretend you own an LFS-and you get your corals from that region. All the sudden there is a ban. If I owned the store, I would raise prices - because - I will have to pay the rent 6 months and a year later - If I sell all my product - without having anything to replace it - what would I do?

 

[sde1500]

One can argue that the hobbyist can sustain the coral demand without using the indo ban as an excuse to justify outrageous prices. I still hold strong to my point, that people are using the indo ban as a way to market to the hobbyists higher prices. When any logical thinking person can see right through it.

Sure I guess you could. But it's purely opinion based and has no data to back it up. No one with this line of thought has yet to actually explain it to me. Maybe you can....

Two major supply lines of coral just closed, two supply lines that were able to use extremely low cost inputs, sun and ocean bottom is free essentially, cheap labor, some egg crate/pvc, and some holding tanks to grow/harvest/export huge quantities of coral. These just closed. Now we have less areas supplying coral, its not something that can be quickly ramped up, though Malaysia is trying but CITES there is still relatively limiting IIRC. So to try and counter that we'd need locals to pick up a massive amount of slack, and if it goes very long term would need significant investments in aquaculture. Please don't start pointing out random individual pieces that are high priced. I truly don't care anyone's opinion on gold torches, rainbow tenuis and the like. I'm talking all coral, across the board, we've lost access to major supply lines. Prove to me that is a marketing scheme. Show me that logic.

 

[Back where it all began]

Let all of us know how this applies. I think you’re completely incorrect. There has to collusion. Do you think zzz corals is telling yyy and xxx corals to set the price for a certain frag at whatever lok. it’s ridiculous. Imo

It happens in the pharmaceutical business all of the time. Why not elsewhere?

 

[MnFish1]

It happens in the pharmaceutical business all of the time. Why not elsewhere?

I dont want to derail the thread -but -can you give the examples of collusion in the pharmaceutical industry? Note - I dont mean 'high prices' - I mean collusion where one company calls another and says - lets charge xxx$ for this drug. FWIW - It MIGHT have happened - but - in general -drug prices are a complex relationship between insurance companies, drug companies and pharmacies - and most people pay different prices for drugs based their insurance - I think you might have picked a bad example to make your point

 

[Thaxxx]

i used to get my live rock from marcos and they stopped selling it all together

You can still get it from tbsaltwater.com

 

[Hermie]

I dont want to derail the thread -but -can you give the examples of collusion in the pharmaceutical industry? Note - I dont mean 'high prices' - I mean collusion where one company calls another and says - lets charge xxx$ for this drug. FWIW - It MIGHT have happened - but - in general -drug prices are a complex relationship between insurance companies, drug companies and pharmacies - and most people pay different prices for drugs based their insurance - I think you might have picked a bad example to make your point

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/phar...iolation-antitrust-law-resolves-related-false

lol

 

[Hermie]

There's a reason why regulatory bodies exist, and it's not because "they are commies that want to crush the free market"

 

[bigdrew]

I love the status of the industry right now, especially compared to the late 90’s. The technology is incredible, with LEDs, a forum like this to get support, creativity with high end corals, accountability with suppliers due to online reviews and feedback, etc, etc. Pricing will always go up. Maybe not as fast as it has, which I appreciate, but we are in a really good spot overall. I’m having a hard time understanding the complaints. Even on cost, just be selective and patient (and don’t be afraid to be counter to what’s popular, and don’t be afraid to get creative and network locally on here!) and I think you can pull together an awesome DT with some beautiful stuff for not a gigantic investment.

 

[MnFish1]

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/phar...iolation-antitrust-law-resolves-related-false

lol

So - thanks for the example. However - 'Heritage pharmaceutical' is far less than 1 percent (sorry I didnt google the total pharmaceutical budget in the US)- So - you're right - thought it 'happens' its not 'widespread'. Im sure there are 1 or 2 coral breeders that talk and say lets price xxx at yyy. The point was its not widespread --- And its not widespread in the pharmaceutical industry either. Now - the insurance industry may be a different animal. I mean look at Theranos. Lots of people are wrongdoers - its just not widespread - which is the point here, right?

EDIT - I did google it - they have 15 million of revenue. and its one company.