What has happened to The reef hobby

[Lavey29]

It's both politicians AND speculators. Mostly speculators, but also politicians.

Actually it's quite simple, energy independence 2 years ago versus energy dependent now and 6 bucks a gallon.

 

[Jeeperz]

All I want are some nice clams at some good prices...

Time machine? I guess good prices is relative. I can understand why captive bred is expensive, I'm willing to pay more for that, too a point

 

[Jeeperz]

Actually it's quite simple, energy independence 2 years ago versus energy dependent now and 6 bucks a gallon.

That doesn't explain all of it. Barrel price was still low up till a few weeks ago. I do agree on energy independence but we also need to watch the long game. If we extract all our resources now, we will be buying it from out of country in the future when it's more $$$

 

[Sean Clark]

Time machine? I guess good prices is relative. I can understand why captive bred is expensive, I'm willing to pay more for that, too a point

True. I'll try to put some more context to that.
Time machine would be ideal... but...
I purchased a captive bred Corcia in 2019 for $89. I was happy to pay that amount. I liked the idea that the clam would be more hearty and less disease ridden. This proved true for my specimen. I still have it and I can only hope that it is thriving. It doesn't talk much but I still listen. This was about an inch when I purchased it. Now it is 4 or 5 inches. An $89 well spent in my eyes.

 

[Fishfreak2009]

True. I'll try to put some more context to that.
Time machine would be ideal... but...
I purchased a captive bred Corcia in 2019 for $89. I was happy to pay that amount. I liked the idea that the clam would be more hearty and less disease ridden. This proved true for my specimen. I still have it and I can only hope that it is thriving. It doesn't talk much but I still listen. This was about an inch when I purchased it. Now it is 4 or 5 inches. An $89 well spent in my eyes.

The crocea and maxima I bought today were only $75 each, and the Hippopus only $40. All were captive bred. Direct from Biota you can buy CB squamosa for $100 each, and CB derasa for only $75 each. One of each pushes you over the free shipping threshhold.

 

[Jeeperz]

The crocea and maxima I bought today were only $75 each, and the Hippopus only $40. All were captive bred. Direct from Biota you can buy CB squamosa for $100 each, and CB derasa for only $75 each. One of each pushes you over the free shipping threshhold.

Just like my biota Mandarin, much rather have a captive bred than wild. She's is fat and loves hikari pellets

 

[ReefingFamily]

Yeah I was in one of the local fish stores yesterday and just looking around and saw the price of some of the corals and then some of the new names that are on Old SPS Coral so it was just unbelievable the amount of money they were asking yeah I was just blown away

I think when names became a big thing and some people who created brands for themselves due to their ability to find great colored corals and create names for them was the start of it all. I agree with everyone else that things got more challenging with the pandemic and shipping bans and such but the naming started to really take off 10 or more years ago and prices where crazy high.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

The words grail and holy started to be used.

grafted Ultra rare hand fed aquacultured monochromatic rainbow spliced holy grail of the gods [fill in the blank] coral

 

[Duncan62]

I've been out the reef hobby for about 8 years now I used to have a 240 gallon cube and I've noticed a lot of the equipment has changed which is great for the hobby but I also notice a lot of the corals are the same with different names and crazy high I'm not sure what has happened over the last 8 to 10 years but I was considering getting back into the hobby definitely will not do it at this point.

Don't buy from the guys that give stuff silly names of corals named after a person. Lol there are places you can buy the same coral that just says neon whatever for a fair price. The fish are worse. 150 for a yellow tang. Lol. Clowns insane. I just bought a dozen perculas for 3 tanks and was happy to pay 10 bucks apiece. Lfs they're 21.00 for what was a 4 dollar fish way back. The lighting is better but crazy over priced. Affordable leds are available if you skip brand names.

 

[Chrisv.]

I breed and sell mutated boas. Every time something new pops up it gets a fancy name and priced astronomically. End of day. Just a Boa. Ball python market is crazier. Although none change color because of lighting but some sellers try using lighting to mid represent intensity of color.

Haha I did BPs for a while. What a crowd that is.

 

[Wasabiroot]

This thread again! What are we at, one per day now? jk (mostly)
I feel your pain regarding prices. I started in March 2021, and I'm a stranger to the days of 30 dollar acro colonies imported from the wild. I knew the hobby was expensive.
Turns out stuff in 2022 is more expensive than 1980 due to inflation and the world being completely different, digitalized, and connected. Who woulda thunk. The purchasing power of the dollar is different. Stuff on the whole is just more expensive now. It's not some sinister plot, it's how it pans out when things are happening the way they are. Everyone is more digitally connected, and thus more able to find out what their services are worth to the hobby as a whole. The world is not the same as it was in the past - we don't indiscriminately hack chunks of fragile corals to make desktop ornaments the same as we used to.
And with the price of gas rising worldwide, what makes you think getting those corals to us would be cheaper? The cost of shipping is NOT secretly low; I would venture to guess it's a significant chunk of money for large retailers in their overhead. Tidal Gardens just had a livestream with ReefBum and Than said his spending on shipping alone for one week was 7k.

It's actually expensive (and rightfully so) to ship a 3 pound box of water, overnight, on a jet, to your doorstep the next morning, in as short a time as possible. This should not be surprising. And if so, perhaps shop locally or ask your LFS to bring something in for you.

Clearly we have a large amount of money to burn as the prices don't seem to be going down, nor do there appear to be large swaths of unsold frags on popular retail websites. In fact, they seem to be doing better than ever. The best thing one can do to avoid paying out the nose is to abstain from purchasing expensive frags, but that's on the individual buyer.

I would agree that a perfectly reasonable reef tank can be had for much less if avoiding larger stores and buying stuff on sale or from local reefers. Nobody said you can't still trade at a frag swap.
And I still see excellent articles, personal studies, diy solutions and advice on this forum - the fact that it now has a functional classifieds doesn't suddenly nullify that.

We should have a separate political forum so we can make our grossly oversimplified takes on complex world economics, inflation, and the sourcing, refining and shipping of crude oil during a possible european war and post pandemic worldwide economic instability and recovery there instead of subtly shoehorning them in every time dissatisfaction with prices happens in the main forum.

I think overall the hobby appears to have just changed for the more expensive and that isn't going away anytime soon. I don't want to sound dismissive of anyone's takes but...

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Chrisv.]

I've been in the hobby for a while too, and while I completely agree that the prices are WAY out of control, the quality of the equipment has escalated like crazy. I used to do a lot of DIY equipment back in the day, and it worked, but the commercial stuff was almost always better. The fact that I have a light that can run a custom spectrum blend, and that I can gradually change that blend across the day...and control it from my smart phone....I mean... Wow. We're a far cry from power compacts.

My ability to pay for things has changed in the 25 yrs that I've been running reef tanks, but I agree that prices are prohibitive. Back when Tyree started naming and selling "limited edition" frags there was like one guy in my local club who would buy them, frag them, and distribute them for a fraction of the cost.

Another issue is that so many reefers see coral as an investment rather than selling frags on a "cost recovery model." I've had so much fun over the years trading/buying/selling coral from local folks, and we all hook each other up. Now people want full blown retail on their frag. Nope.

An earlier poster commented that this is literally addicting. I see that so often. I've bought almost new gear from people with three month old tanks with 200 frags in them, who needed to sell their RODI so that they could pay that months minimum credit card payment. The stupid names and the live sales only make it worse. I've seen people divorced over the hobby many times. I've seen people with serious addiction issues get out of jail and start a reef tank, and replace one addiction with another leading to financial ruin. It's incredibly sad.

Support your local reefers, folks! Do it through your local reef club! When you get a good deal, pass it on! When you buy a coral and grow it out, hook a new guy up with a free frag. When you sell frags, remember that you can recover the cost of your frag by selling 10 frags of the colony over the course of a year for 1/10 the price you paid. Everyone benefits.

 

[Lyss]

I think there are a lot of great responses on this thread, and it kinda all just points to a few things being at play. Covid accelerated weird economies w/in these kinds of hobbies that were already becoming more popular. But even w/o covid or other current global issues, costs would've continued to go up because of a number of other things, like a digital, connected world.

I agree that having a light that I can program via my phone is amazing, and I spent the extra money on it for that very reason. A year into my tank, I've recently put some $ into automation so I can be at the office more and travel again w/o worry. That was huge for me, and I am willing to pay extra for that kind of thing.

I don't see quite the over-the-top insane obsessive craze proportions in this hobby that I was seeing with plant collectors, but either way the desire to have that hot new plant or coral definitely comes from being influenced by social media. Collectors and hobbyists drive this, but you don't need to participate in it. I personally don't like torches lol, what can I say. But some people really get into the idea of having the hot new expensive thing, and as long as there are ppl willing to pay for it, the high prices and flashy marketing will exist.

I also think it's good to see it pointed out that retailers like your LFS, etc, are not by default a group of greedy jerks looking to rob us of our money. The cost of running a business is huge, and most are just good people trying to make enough to cover overhead and still turn a profit, especially in a difficult environment rn. The reality is that most LFS are struggling to stay in business.

 

[Chrisv.]

I think there are a lot of great responses on this thread, and it kinda all just points to a few things being at play. Covid accelerated weird economies w/in these kinds of hobbies that were already becoming more popular. But even w/o covid or other current global issues, costs would've continued to go up because of a number of other things, like a digital, connected world.

I agree that having a light that I can program via my phone is amazing, and I spent the extra money on it for that very reason. A year into my tank, I've recently put some $ into automation so I can be at the office more and travel again w/o worry. That was huge for me, and I am willing to pay extra for that kind of thing.

I don't see quite the over-the-top insane obsessive craze proportions in this hobby that I was seeing with plant collectors, but either way the desire to have that hot new plant or coral definitely comes from being influenced by social media. Collectors and hobbyists drive this, but you don't need to participate in it. I personally don't like torches lol, what can I say. But some people really get into the idea of having the hot new expensive thing, and as long as there are ppl willing to pay for it, the high prices and flashy marketing will exist.

I also think it's good to see it pointed out that retailers like your LFS, etc, are not by default a group of greedy jerks looking to rob us of our money. The cost of running a business is huge, and most are just good people trying to make enough to cover overhead and still turn a profit, especially in a difficult environment rn. The reality is that most LFS are struggling to stay in business.

LFSs have really been stuck with the short end of the stick. They can't compete with locals on coral prices and they can't compete with mail order on coral quality... And they are stuck matching BRS prices of they want to sell dry goods, even though they have to pay for brick and mortar stores.

That leaves fish. And most refuse to set up a proper QT system, so they end up losing a lot of fish sales to places like TSM.

Wouldn't want to own a LFS these days. I don't see greed, I see desperation.

 

[Lyss]

LFSs have really been stuck with the short end of the stick. They can't compete with locals on coral prices and they can't compete with mail order on coral quality... And they are stuck matching BRS prices of they want to sell dry goods, even though they have to pay for brick and mortar stores.

That leaves fish. And most refuse to set up a proper QT system, so they end up losing a lot of fish sales to places like TSM.

Wouldn't want to own a LFS these days. I don't see greed, I see desperation.

A whole other really good convo to have. As I see it, any LFS not willing to sell e-commerce is asking to be outcompeted. I think most realized this when Covid also accelerated e-commerce, and they scrambled to set up an e-commerece component to their stores -- for many consumers it was the only way they could or would shop, and I don't see that changing, even with lockdowns over, b/c ppl have realized how easy and convenient it is to order all kinds of stuff online and have it delivered right to your doorstep.

And QT, omg -- I understand in the short term why LFS won't do it. But I still swear by the idea that if they did they would make so much more in the long term. Whoever can scale that is going to see so much benefit. They don't even have to have all livestock QT, at least to start, they can have a QT section. I would shop solely from there if it existed at my LFS.

I see that a lot of folks who own or head up businesses and organizations in styles that have been around for a long time are reluctant to change, even when their relevance depends on it. It's really a shame. My team just worked to rebrand an old-school union, and in the end all the cool new stuff we did with the look and feel of their brand got removed. We ended up with something that looks almost just like the old visual brand. Why? B/c they said they wanted and needed it to attract new types of members, but internally couldn't truly accept anything modern and new. I see stuff like that everywhere in every industry and type of business or association.

 

[danny_corals]

Price of everything is up ;Vomit

 

[Chrisv.]

And QT, omg -- I understand in the short term why LFS won't do it. But I still swear by the idea that if they did they would make so much more in the long term. Whoever can scale that is going to see so much benefit. They don't even have to have all livestock QT, at least to start, they can have a QT section. I would shop solely from there if it existed at my LFS.

Exactly. Tbh, I see it as the only advantage they have left.

 

[Lavey29]

That's why I won't buy acro or Millie's. Stylo is as far as I go with sps

I love stylos. Have green, pink, and purple now want to add blue too.

 

[mattdg]

I think a combination of Blue LED's and crypto type ideologies that really changed things. Coral that barely looked special under MH/T5 absolutely glow under certain LED color temps. Good example are tenuis, zoas and bounce mushrooms. Opportunistic and unscrupulous individuals capitalized on the nuances in color and the new hunger for alternative investments.

Personally, I don't think living things should ever considered an investment. With that said, some of these coral are truly rare and special. They deserve a premium price, according to the laws of supply and demand. Many have simply been hyped by "influencers" often renaming the same piece, multiple times, to increase profit on a particular coral that has already saturated the hobby. If you are an ebay user, you especially know who I am referring to, with their booger sized offerings. Teeny SPS frags, are always going to look the best, when it comes to color.

You can still have good, cheap fun in this hobby. Just don't go for the "ultra" coral and build a beautiful tank with what is commonly available and traded around locally. If you want to get into rare coral with more color, you can opt to spend more, but it is not the only way to do this hobby.

 

[SPSReeferMI]

I rejoined this hobby right before covid. I quickly adopted some of the fancy new equipment and I love all the tech and features. Knowing what I know now (after reading this forum throughout Covid and watching almost every reefing-related YouTube video) I could’ve made more cost-effective choices. I’m not regretful, but I do note ways that I can pick different solutions for different tanks and price points.