What is a healthy fish?

[Brew12]

Are these aquatic veterinarians?? Or regular vets who got 1 day of aquatic curriculum? (This isn't me taking a shot at them. It's what I've been told by numerous veterinarians.)

They are not aquatic vets. We don't have any in the area. I have no idea how much training they get on fish health. I'm sure this lack of formal training is part of the reason for their caution. However, they also won't write prescriptions for dogs, cat's or other animals without personally examining them. The repercussions of non-treatment in these cases is much safer for them, practice wise, than risking improperly writing a prescription.

 

[Paul Sands]

Maybe you do. I know from previous posts that he doesn't.

Which of his 44 posts does he mention using medication to treat his fish? All I see are posts about the defunct mindstream.

 

[Lasse]

3 of them said they wouldn't prescribe it for prophylactic use or for Ich because it isn't virulent enough to warrant aggressive treatment.

My bold

Then your vets' understanding of Crytpo is at odds with advice given by the largest Veterinary Compounding Pharmacy in the country: https://www.diamondbackdrugs.com/chloroquine/

Are these aquatic veterinarians?? Or regular vets who got 1 day of aquatic curriculum? (This isn't me taking a shot at them. It's what I've been told by numerous veterinarians.)

Beside that you link to a drug companies that sell this drug - where in the link do they mention prophylactic treatment?????

I haven´t and I know that Brew12 haven´t either anything against treatment with whatever when you have a established disease. Even if I would not treat with that drug.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Thank you @Paul Sands - now you have got a face too. You looks beautiful

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

I haven´t and I know that Brew12 haven´t either anything against treatment with whatever when you have a established disease. Even if I would not treat with that drug.

I am almost certain the are vets here won't prescribe CP for ich because of uncertainty about it's dosing requirements. The recommendations on treating with CP don't all line up and don't agree on the precautions. I doubt they would be willing to take the time to decipher through all the data unless they were to personally get in the hobby. With velvet, they figure the fish is unlikely to survive without rapid treatment and consider it worth the risk.

Not exactly their words, but it was my interpretation of what they were saying.

 

[Humblefish]

I haven´t and I know that Brew12 haven´t either anything against treatment with whatever when you have a established disease.

In most cases Crypto remains confined to the gills - unless it is a species with a thin mucous coat. How many hobbyists do you think are comfortable taking a gill scrape?? So, unless it is treated for prophylactically, Crypto will evade detection in QT (in most cases.) The infected fish is placed in the DT, and QT was a failure because someone was too scared to treat with copper or Chloroquine. Because maybe (BIG MAYBE) in 5-10 years there will be some lingering side effects? In 1 out of 100 fish? This is the same foolishness which prevents some parents from getting their children immunized, because they think there is a link between vaccines and autism.

 

[Lasse]

Its not the same - vaccine is proven practice among humans (and other organisms) It has been developed with help of clinical studies with the species its matter. It is long way from that to using drugs on species that they are not tested for.

I have linked to this article before and I have talking with the authors because there is typo in the text. The text give concentrations in mg/ml - it is wrong, it is a typo - all concentration tested is mg/l (ppm). The test is done on common carp but show a total different picture from what you are saying. Treatment wit as low as 3.1 ppm give damage on internal organs

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

This is another article

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Then your vets' understanding of Crytpo is at odds with advice given by the largest Veterinary Compounding Pharmacy in the country: https://www.diamondbackdrugs.com/chloroquine/

Are these aquatic veterinarians?? Or regular vets who got 1 day of aquatic curriculum? (This isn't me taking a shot at them. It's what I've been told by numerous veterinarians.)

Actually they have about a week - but - thats kind of similar to medical students who have 6 weeks of Pyschiatry training.... (backing back out)

 

[Humblefish]

Its not the same - vaccine is proven practice among humans (and other organisms) It has been developed with help of clinical studies with the species its matter. It is long way from that to using drugs on species that they are not tested for.

I have linked to this article before and I have talking with the authors because there is typo in the text. The text give concentrations in mg/ml - it is wrong, it is a typo - all concentration tested is mg/l (ppm). The test is done on common carp but show a total different picture from what you are saying. Treatment wit as low as 3.1 ppm give damage on internal organs

Sincerely Lasse

When is the "typo" going to be corrected? Because mg/ml appears throughout the study and greatly undermines the message that therapeutic CP is toxic to internal organs. Therefore, one would think this is something that would get corrected ASAP.

 

[Lasse]

When is the "typo" going to be corrected? Because mg/ml appears throughout the study and greatly undermines the message that therapeutic CP is toxic to internal organs. Therefore, one would think this is something that would get corrected ASAP.

I have no idea but I got this answer

Dear Lasse Forsberg

Thanks for your information. Actually the LC 50 value is 31.62 mg/l. For acute toxicity test we used 31.62 mg/l and for sub lethal toxicity test we used 3.16 mg/l. Due to topographical error it was mentioned as mg/ml. I am very sorry and thanks for pointing out the mistake.

with regards

ramesh

I have sent the the whole conversation (in a text file) to you through PM. As you can understand of the other article I linked to EU-regulations forbid the use of QP in production of fish for human consumption. This is because the metabolism of QP is slow and that toxic metabolites can be build up in the fish.

With this article in mind and knowledge of the detoxification of QP in living organisms - I hope that you and others stop advocating for the use of QP for ornamental fish.

@Brew12 Send this linked article to your vets - they are right when they hesitate to use QP. They maybe not specialist about fish diseases but they have years of education according to drugs and their break down pattern

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

OMG, I go to a restaurant for a few hours and all you "Noobs" go nuts.

The original tital of this thread (if I can remember it) is "What is a Health Fish".
That to me is very simple and it has nothing to do with the fact that it harbors, velvet, fin rot, ich, plague or anything else. Us Humans carry "everything" which can be considered a disease but some of us live to be over 100. I have a fake knee, arthritis, a little cataract, pre diabetes and male pattern baldness. Am I healthy? You bet your Achilles Tang I am.

A healthy fish is easy to tell. Very easy and there is one test that proves it beyond a doubt.
If the thing lives to it's perceived lifespan without exhibiting a disease it is healthy.
If it is spawning it is as healthy as it could be no matter what it has or what a 7 year Vet says.
I am also a Vet. OK a Veteran, work with me here. ;Bookworm

I didn't go to Vet school or any college, I didn't have to as I was smart enough already
But I have something that you Vet's don't have. No, not just good looks and a winning personality, I have a very old fish tank where absolutely nothing gets sick, and they just don't get sick, they haven't been sick since before the Vets you know were born.

They may have parasites and every other disease in creation and I hope they do because any organism that is not carrying diseases is on it's way to dying as that is not normal.
Even parasites have parasites and those parasites have bacterial and viral infections, some maybe even have canker sores.

All fish from the sea are immune to everything, they just have differing strengths of immunity due to the way "we" handle them when we get them. We make them sick and we kill them.

Don't blame the store, it is us. When that guy in a canoe collected those fish they were fine. They were eating, spawning, texting etc. with no problems because they knew that their immune system was functioning perfectly because they were eating what they were supposed to eat.

Live, whole food with all the parasites, bacteria and parasites in it. Every day, everything they ate was infected. Most of us don't get that and we make our fish sick.
I am not that smart and yet I never get a sick fish. Why is that?
Why don't I ever start a thread that reads "OMG" I quarantined for 72 days and everything is dying" Like 80% of the threads on the disease forum. Think about that.

Fish in the sea don't take Glucan, copper, Prizapro or anything but fish guts.
They have a much better immune system than we do because they were here before most of us and diseases have a much easier time getting around in water than air.

This all seems so silly to me and so do disease forums as there is no need to cure anything if we don't make them sick.

Just take a fish from the sea and put it in a real tank. Not a bare thing with PVC pipes. Thats like putting a person in a cell with nothing to listen to but RAP music and have nothing on the walls but pictures of (OK I won't post that or I will get banned, figure it out)



I went to this cool restaurant last night, While you guys were argueing about what a healthy fish was. The Atlantic was "Under" the restaurant and the waves were breaking on the windows. To make this about fish, there are sea bass, fluke, blowfish, stripped bass and Mola Mola right out there.

 

[C. Eymann]

One of my aquarium maintenance clients back in the day was a vets office! Here in the US, Vets get little if any training in fish disease unless maybe if they specialize in exotics.
To get one to prescribe me Interceptor for Acropora RB many years ago, it took me taking in literature by Dustin Dorton, pictures of my tank and literature on RB themselves to 4 different vets until finally one of them happened to be in the hobby as well and would script me so I could order it online.

Also, I have never seen RB themselves kill acropora, stunts their growth and reduces coloration though, one could argue that many corals receive damage from these harsh dips, like Bayer, coral RX, Revive, that aquarist use as prophylactic dips.


I have had clients with a tanks already filled with about a thousand $$ worth of fish, many of them worth more than that to the owner and they want to add that last cherry on top as a powder blue or Achilles, you can be darn sure I'm prophylactically treating that fish in QT before adding to display if I can't do TTM.

 

[Lasse]

I have had clients with a tanks already filled with about a thousand $$ worth of fish, many of them worth more than that to the owner and they want to add that last cherry on top as a powder blue or Achilles, you can be darn sure I'm prophylactically treating that fish in QT before adding to display if I can't do TTM.

Why not just observation QT during normal conditions and maybe with a combination of TTM. Why use drugs that´s we do not know long time effect of and put the newcomers into risk - just in case off.

My experiences - when a disease coming up after an new introduction - says that is normally not the old fish that catch the disease first - it is the newcomer. Without thinking - many people says that it must be that fish that carry the pathogen. But think twice - for me it is more likely that the newcomer catch the disease from pathogen already present in their new home. In these cases - you can treat the newcomers for decades - it will catch the disease in the moment you introduce it. IMO - if you have weakened the fish immune system with a heavily prophylactic treatment before - the risk for catching a disease from pathogens already present is higher

If I have had fishes in observation QT (have happens) - I always do multiple WC from the DT tank during the last two weeks or I have the QT tank downstream the DT and have the returning water from the sump heavily radiated with UV-C of the right type. In this way - I will notice if the fish get a disease from already existing pathogen.

If I go to a another country - I´m very aware of not to drink their tap water (if it not is Northern Europe). I get sick if I do. Not because I´m carrying something - just because that my stomach haven´t any immune response against the microorganism in their water. its the same with the fish - only that they can´t buy a bottle of water and swim in that. Its not more complicated than that. if I will stay in the new country for a prolonged period - small mistakes (as brush my teeth in their tap water) have vaccinate me and it is no problem to drink tap water as locals. It is normal also for people coming in to Sweden from different countries - they must get used of our tap water. I was working for 8 years in a waste water plant. First month was a roller coaster for my stomach and my health. After two months - I did not catch any microbial caused disease at all - still after nearly 20 years I seldom catch a caught lasting more than one day. I was working in a Folk College - all their waste water was passing through the plant (200 Pe) - diseases was common at the camp, especially during fall and after the Christmas break

The work in the treatment plant give me shower of all microorganism that lives at the folk college every day, People around me get disease all the time but I as an early encounter of all old and new microorganism I get no disease at all. During this time - my family living at the Folk college get stomach diseases at least 1 time a year - I get one during this 8 years and we could trace that the infection had started in my children's school in the nearby town - not started at the folk college. i did catch colds but they normally starts around noon and was away in the evening. I was very sick with fever for a few hours - but that´s was normally that.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

Lasse, don't go to Mexico. ;Drool

 

[C. Eymann]

Why not just observation QT during normal conditions and maybe with a combination of TTM. Why use drugs that´s we do not know long time effect of and put the newcomers into risk - just in case off.

My experiences - when a disease coming up after an new introduction - says that is normally not the old fish that catch the disease first - it is the newcomer. Without thinking - many people says that it must be that fish that carry the pathogen. But think twice - for me it is more likely that the newcomer catch the disease from pathogen already present in their new home. In these cases - you can treat the newcomers for decades - it will catch the disease in the moment you introduce it. IMO - if you have weakened the fish immune system with a heavily prophylactic treatment before - the risk for catching a disease from pathogens already present is higher

If I have had fishes in observation QT (have happens) - I always do multiple WC from the DT tank during the last two weeks or I have the QT tank downstream the DT and have the returning water from the sump heavily radiated with UV-C of the right type. In this way - I will notice if the fish get a disease from already existing pathogen.

If I go to a another country - I´m very aware of not to drink their tap water (if it not is Northern Europe). I get sick if I do. Not because I´m carrying something - just because that my stomach haven´t any immune response against the microorganism in their water. its the same with the fish - only that they can´t buy a bottle of water and swim in that. Its not more complicated than that. if I will stay in the new country for a prolonged period - small mistakes (as brush my teeth in their tap water) have vaccinate me and it is no problem to drink tap water as locals. It is normal also for people coming in to Sweden from different countries - they must get used of our tap water. I was working for 8 years in a waste water plant. First month was a roller coaster for my stomach and my health. After two months - I did not catch any microbial caused disease at all - still after nearly 20 years I seldom catch a caught lasting more than one day. I was working in a Folk College - all their waste water was passing through the plant (200 Pe) - diseases was common at the camp, especially during fall and after the Christmas break

The work in the treatment plant give me shower of all microorganism that lives at the folk college every day, People around me get disease all the time but I as an early encounter of all old and new microorganism I get no disease at all. During this time - my family living at the Folk college get stomach diseases at least 1 time a year - I get one during this 8 years and we could trace that the infection had started in my children's school in the nearby town - not started at the folk college. i did catch colds but they normally starts around noon and was away in the evening. I was very sick with fever for a few hours - but that´s was normally that.

Sincerely Lasse

I understand and think TTM is the best hands down, but it's not practical in a lot of applications, esp when it comes to LFS and private maintenance accounts.

I understand that yes, we are unaware of the long term effects that some prophylactic treatments may cause in fish, but again, it's one of the only routes applicable in certain situations.

Prophylactic treatments are commonplace amongst us humans? Some recently approved but controversial prophylactic drugs such as Truvada and PEP have help curbed new HIV infection rates around the world. there are some very rare cases of side effects such as kidney problems in certain people as with any drug, there will be those rare cases of adverse reactions..
I assume it's the same with fish, some fish will be able to take treatments much better without damage/long term effects while some can have complications from it.

It's about weighing the risks I guess?
Let's say you got a blood transfusion and were informed that the blood used for the transfusion accidentally wasnt screened? Would you take the recommend round of antivirals to prevent possible infections?
I would.



Just my .02

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

Unsubscribe.

 

[MnFish1]

Unsubscribe.

FYi - this doesnt do anything ?

 

[Paul B]

I think it is different with people because as I said we live on land, in the air. The oceans have been mixing for millennia and diseases in the sea (I think) have been circulating in the sea forever.
We have no immunity from Aids because that is a new disease that came from monkeys. When I was a kid, no one had it.
(many survivors from the Plague today are immune to aids)

I believe that in the sea fish are exposed to ich, velvet and everything else and are used to it and immune to it "when they are healthy and eating correctly)

I also think Prophylactic treatment will short circuit the fishes immune response, weakening the fish rather than strengthening it.
I think thats why so many fish die in quarantine, especially the ones that are treated .

This thread is an example of the many threads that go this way.

Quote:
I moved a Maculiceps Tang that had Ich to a quarantine tank so i could start a fallow period for my display tank. I treated with Cupramine for 2 weeks and the Ich went away. I've ran carbon and done large water changes to remove the Cupramine. The fish was eating fine before and during the copper treatment and for about a week or so after. But a couple weeks ago it started only nibbling at algae sheets or other food it had been eating. I haven't seen it eat for at least a week. The two Anthias I have in quarantine with it are eating fine. The other fish I had in quarantine died shortly after I moved them to quarantine and started the Cupramine treatment.

This is a common scenario with quarantine and I feel it is the meds that are causing the fish deaths, not the perceived disease. Dead stomach flora will not allow a fish to digest anything just when it is sick and in the most need of nourishment.
If you look through the disease forums you will see way to many cases like this and I feel it is horrible to let so many fish die needlessly when there is no need for that to happen.
Just my opinion of course as I realize many people don't agree or believe me so just go to the forum and look around.

 

[Lasse]

I do not think it is particularly fair to make a comparison with the HIV virus and the disease AIDS here. The HIV virus attack the immune response and AIDS is a disease that occurs when the immune system is so weakened by an HIV infection that you can get other diseases. Technically will you not die of HIV or AIDS - you die of other diseases that your immune system can´t can´t handle because it is destroyed of the virus.

Sincerely Lasse