What is "Great Success"?

Clownfish R Us · Feb 17, 2018

I believe success is when you set goals for yourself when you reach them and then you set some more goals and then you reach them as long as you’re doing it morally I believe when you sit down and you look at your life and you feel happy about the things you’re doing I think that a success, being successful is a personal thing no one could sit there and say you’re successful besides yourself because no one else’s opinion ******* matters GODS PLAN [emoji1377]

JCM · Feb 17, 2018

MnFish1 said:
That said - I read (between the clever charming folksy examples of things that are never said (which I found quite funny- in a positive way)) a person that suggests that people that use QT methods and Prazipro, etc etc cannot or will not enjoy 'great success'.

Or if they 'claim to have great success', that they do not match the 'great success' breeding or long-lived fish of the original poster.

Fair enough.

I went back and re-read. Maybe I'm dense, but I didn't gather that at all. More like "if you only keep a fish alive for 15 years that has a life expectancy of 30 years it's not a great success."

For the record, I have no problem with QT or prazipro.

MnFish1 · Feb 17, 2018

Mccool said:
Fair enough. I went back and re-read. Maybe I'm dense, but I didn't gather that at all. More like "if you only keep a fish alive for 15 years that has a life expectancy of 30 years it's not a great success." For the record, I have no problem with QT or prazipro.

Fair enough. It illustrates how different people can read the same post and come up with different impressions.

For the record, I haven't ever used Prazipro and don't QT (because I have a great LFS that sells great livestock). If I were buying something online - (which I will never do again) I would probably have a different viewpoint.

Paul B · Feb 17, 2018

Paul B said:
I don't know but "Success and Great Success" should mean different things. To me, "success" is if you buy a fish and a year or two later it is alive and healthy. That means the fish is eating and thriving, disease free and seems healthy. But "Great Success" is only when you buy a fish, it eats right away and eventually, if it is a pair, it spawns and keeps spawning for it's entire presumed lifespan which in fish can be anywhere from 4 years to 40 years. If you have a clownfish and it is 10 years old, you are successful at keeping that fish. But is that same fish lives
30 or 40 years, that is great success because clownfish live into their 40s.

The threads original meaning was not as serious as many people make it out to be. It was never that important and was not about my tank, my methods, my meanings, my tongue and cheek writing, my experience or anything else remotely that earth shattering. I just happened to read some threads where the author mentioned they had Great Success doing one thing or another. I asked, "What do we mean by Great Success".
We all have some degree of success in this hobby if we are keeping something alive. But we don't have Great Success if we don't keep them alive for their lifespan. If we didn't than what do we call someone with an 80 year old Clownfish? I didn't mean to belittle anyone and say that they are not successful, but not everyone is, I am sorry thats just the way it is. I am not even successful with many corals as I have killed plenty of them. I totally suck with some of them so I would not call myself successful but I will get over it. I also can't break dance, bungee jump or do cartwheels, there are many things I suck at and so I am not successful at them and certainly have not had Great Success at those things. We all can't have Great Success, if we did,than it wouldn't be very hard would it.
I actually do know someone who climbed Mt Everest. My Son n law's Father. He made it to the top as far as I can tell so he had Great Success. If I tried to climb it and fell on my face as I got out of the bus at the bottom, i wouldn't call that success or Great Success. If the guy who made it half way up had Great Success, what do you call the people who made it to the top?

MnFish1 said:
That said - I read (between the clever charming folksy examples of things that are never said (which I found quite funny- in a positive way)) a person that suggests that people that use QT methods and Prazipro, etc etc cannot or will not enjoy 'great success'.

I think you are reading much to much into my posts. If you take everything I say in that context as fact, you should not read my stuff. I can write dry and factual, but I would bore myself, so I don't. Some people enjoy my writing and some people wish that I would leave this forum and take up stamp collecting. If they don't like my writing or writing style, just don't read my posts. I like to write like that, it's just me. I am also not that politically correct. I am old, a combat Vet with PTSD and really don't care that much any more. I am what I am.

MnFish1 said:
Re-read the original post in this thread - and upfront - I admit I may be misreading the intent.

Thats because there is no intent. It is just to stimulate discussion. But I can write very boreing threads also.

MnFish1 said:
based on your response to @Tahoe61, your tank is not really 40+ years old - it has gone through phases - the gorgonian phase, the SPS phase, etc. Well in that case I have been doing it for 30 years.

You can call my tank 40 years old, 30 years old, or 2 years old. I was never here because I want to win a prize. The tank ran from 1971 until now with one move in 79. It will go through another move in a few weeks.
Why would anyone care?
OMG I'm getting a headache from a silly thread.

OK if I have a red fish and I have a blue fish, what color fish should I get next?

Paul B · Feb 17, 2018

Gareth elliott said:
Still waiting for the day we can add polio to smallpox and rinderpest as diseases we have eliminated. I think we are like 600(i might be really off recalling by memory lol) cases a year away. That number has been virtually the same for like a decade though

I am also waiting for Multiple Sclerosis to be on that "eliminated" list as my wife is having a hard time with it for the last 20 years.

Tahoe61 · Feb 17, 2018

Paul B said:
Which other method is that?

Been in the hobby seriously since 1987.

Lucky for me I choose to expand my horizons and have different tanks with different methods, yet I do not feel the need to remind everyone at every opportunity. That is just me though.

JCM · Feb 17, 2018

mcarroll said:
Sometimes it seems like the hobby view of what a reef tank "is allowed to be" is getting more and more narrow....and less and less related to what actual reefs are like.

This is also a good point. The actual reefs I have been to have tons of things most hobbiests consider "undesirable" I've yet to see an actual reef that doesn't have algae mixed in amongst the corals...

MnFish1 · Feb 17, 2018

Paul - I would suggest a blue fish - but thats just my personal preference.

The converse of what you said above - (paraphrased) - If you you dont like what I write don't read it - I guess would be - if you dont want people to comment on what you write, dont write it.

I honestly hope it doesn't come to that because I (and have repeatedly said) enjoy reading what you write. And I hope you dont ban me from commenting on what you write.

That said, some of what you say is factually verifiably incorrect.. The immune system in fish going through the kidney for 1. Yes - Fish have immune tissue in their kidneys, but they also have other immune tissue in other organs just as many other reptiles and animals do. Does that make you 'wrong' about your major points - of course not. But - it is also not an argument against what I said either.

. We can all learn from your experience. Hopefully it is a two way learning street.

MnFish1 · Feb 17, 2018

Mccool said:
This is also a good point. The actual reefs I have been to have tons of things most hobbiests consider "undesirable" I've yet to see an actual reef that doesn't have algae mixed in amongst the corals...

+++++10

Paul B · Feb 17, 2018

This is certainly true. I took these off, I think Lanai in Hawaii.

User1 · Feb 17, 2018

Because my day is going swell I figured I'd add another what is "NOT" considered success

Building a canopy template, sitting in on the tank, and see that it fits perfectly. Great. Add the 80/20 aluminum rails to mount my DIY multi-channel LED's. So far, so good. Go to clip on the LED's, don't ask for help (mistake), clip one on, go to clip the second on only to have the clip upside down or whatever, I have no idea, only to see it fall into my tank and float ever so gently to the bottom... If it was doing an Olympic dive I would have given it a 10 because I saw it go in slow motion while saying to self, Great Scott you screwed the pooch on this one. The only saving grace is that it wasn't plugged in.

That ladies and gentlemen is not success. I think I'm going to call it a day and go throw on Kelly's Hero's and have an adult beverage. I'll consider revisiting the tank tomorrow.

Paul B · Feb 17, 2018

MnFish1 said:
Paul - I would suggest a blue fish - but thats just my personal preference.

The converse of what you said above - (paraphrased) - If you you dont like what I write don't read it - I guess would be - if you dont want people to comment on what you write, dont write it.

I honestly hope it doesn't come to that because I (and have repeatedly said) enjoy reading what you write. And I hope you dont ban me from commenting on what you write.

That said, some of what you say is factually verifiably incorrect.. The immune system in fish going through the kidney for 1. Yes - Fish have immune tissue in their kidneys, but they also have other immune tissue in other organs just as many other reptiles and animals do. Does that make you 'wrong' about your major points - of course not. But - it is also not an argument against what I said either. . We can all learn from your experience. Hopefully it is a two way learning street.

MnFish, I would not and don't know how to ban you from my posts or would I want to. I enjoy this conversation and don't think of it as arguing, it is a discussion. Tahoe is a Mod and of course can ban me.
It's a fish site what can I do? I like it when people correct me or as in what Tahoe said, I remind people the age of my reef all the time. I am sure I do that. I do a lot of things I shouldn't do as my wife points out to me, but I can't ban her. I will also never argue with anyone on a fish site because as I said, it isn't that important in my life it's just one small part and arguing is over in my life. I know I come off badly many times, it's a fault of mine and I have plenty of faults.
Maybe it's the PTSD or maybe I just have a big head, maybe both. If I were perfect, I would be the God of fish and I am not.

On another topic I did post in the Immunity thread I started all about how kidneys in fish work with the immune system. I didn't write it, I just linked it as I am not a fish doctor. But I am to tired to loo for it and it isn't that important to me right now. I still have much to learn about fish immunity but it is a favorite topic of mine. (as is the age of my tank)

MnFish1 said:
- if you dont want people to comment on what you write, dont write it.

Of course I want people to comment, thats why I thought I would post something that I figured would get a lot of responses. But I think I will severely limit new threads here because I don't want people to argue or think I post because I want to talk about my tank. or how wonderful I am, even though i do think that of myself.

It will be like a mini vacation.

Zack K · Feb 17, 2018

Mccool said:
For the record, I have no problem with QT or prazipro.

I would go to the point of saying if used right, it can be a success.
Jason (@4FordFamily) when he did his “experiments” with Acanthurus Tangs, he was losing 98% of them within the first 6mo in an Ich Management tank. Since converting to a full QT before adding to the DT, he has a 98% SUCCESS rate.
Personally I call this a success, and if he can keep those tangs until they die of old age, I would call it a great success (from where he began)

-Zack

Paul B · Feb 17, 2018

I also don't have a problem with quarantine if thats the way you want to run your tank. Many quarantined tanks are beautiful, but it's a different system which can't be mixed with a natural system. I also think all new tanks should be quarantined and I have always said that.

MnFish1 · Feb 17, 2018

Here is a review about the immune system in fish - you are absolutely correct that there is immune tissue in the kidney - but they also have similar immune tissue to other vertebrates (i.e. not only in the kidney) but also "Primary lymphoid tissues include the thymus, where T cell development occurs, and the head-kidney, which performs hematopoietic functions similar to the mammalian bone marrow. Secondary lymphoid tissues include the spleen and the mucosa-associated lymphoid tissues (MALTs)."

Not posting this as a debate point - it is interesting - and educational for everyone

. In that it also talks about the mucosal defenses and microbiome of bony fishes - and its a recent article.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2017.00559/full

JCM · Feb 17, 2018

Zack Klabunde said:
I would go to the point of saying if used right, it can be a success.
Jason (@4FordFamily) when he did his “experiments” with Acanthurus Tangs, he was losing 98% of them within the first 6mo in an Ich Management tank. Since converting to a full QT before adding to the DT, he has a 98% SUCCESS rate.
Personally I call this a success, and if he can keep those tangs until they die of old age, I would call it a great success (from where he began)

-Zack

Zach,

Do you have a link for this? I'm
Not familiar, I'd love to give it a read! What is an ich management tank? That's a dismal survival rate, I'm glad they turned it around.

And I agree, I used to treat all my fish with prazipro. It can certainly be successful.

MnFish1 · Feb 17, 2018

MnFish1 said:
Here is a review about the immune system in fish - you are absolutely correct that there is immune tissue in the kidney - but they also have similar immune tissue to other vertebrates (i.e. not only in the kidney) but also "Primary lymphoid tissues include the thymus, where T cell development occurs, and the head-kidney, which performs hematopoietic functions similar to the mammalian bone marrow. Secondary lymphoid tissues include the spleen and the mucosa-associated lymphoid tissues (MALTs)."

Not posting this as a debate point - it is interesting - and educational for everyone. In that it also talks about the mucosal defenses and microbiome of bony fishes - and its a recent article. @Paul B

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2017.00559/full

And by the way - if you take the time to read the article - it talks about the disadvantages (in this case zebrafish) have when they are NOT exposed to bacteria/viruses, etc in their natural environment.

Paul B · Feb 17, 2018

Thanks for that link. I read it when I posted the Immunity thread. It has great information.
Here is another one more focused on parasites: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ew_of_the_Immunological_Defenses_in_Fish_Skin

Zack K · Feb 17, 2018

Mccool said:
Zach,

Do you have a link for this? I'm
Not familiar, I'd love to give it a read! What is an ich management tank? That's a dismal survival rate, I'm glad they turned it around.

And I agree, I used to treat all my fish with prazipro. It can certainly be successful.

Here is the link for the Acanthurus Tangs:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

Ich Management tank is a tank that has Ich present in the system. The goal is to build up a strong enough immune system the fish to keep Ich at bay and not effect the fish. Some fish can handle it, while other more sensitive fish (ex: Acanthurus Tangs, Butterflies, Anglefish to name a few) will succumb and not be able to fend it off.

-Zack