What is it now?...

[Flame2hawk]

Purple tang has these think spots that look like flukes or anchor worms. Queen Angel is rubbing against sand and has a bit of a sheen. Some other dish are flashing with sudden bursts. The tank has been in hypo salinity 1.008/09) for 35 days which I thought killed worms and flukes?? Any thoughts w/b appreciated PLEASE! Thx

 

[vetteguy53081]

Theyre big. I believe lymphocystis. Ich or velvet would be covering the body, not just the gill and facial area.
Lymphocystis nodules are clustered groups of greatly enlarged, infected cells known as fibroblasts, which are part of the connective tissues in the fish. Lymphocystis is a somewhat common infectious virus hosted by freshwater and saltwater fishes which causes cells to enlarge many times their normal size. It is usually found in the fish skin and fins. After residing on its host for 4 weeks or more, the Lymphocystis cells rupture or fall off the host, spreading the infected cells in the water. The cells then either sink to the bottom of the tank and lie dormant or reattach to another host via a break in the skin or fins, or in the gills.
while there really isnt any formal medication for lympho, you can help this by maintaining optimum water quality, Feeding a healthy diet, including vitamin supplements such as selcon to the foods, and treat for secondary infections in a QT tank.

 

[Flame2hawk]

Theyre big. I believe lymphocystis. Ich or velvet would be covering the body, not just the gill and facial area.
Lymphocystis nodules are clustered groups of greatly enlarged, infected cells known as fibroblasts, which are part of the connective tissues in the fish. Lymphocystis is a somewhat common infectious virus hosted by freshwater and saltwater fishes which causes cells to enlarge many times their normal size. It is usually found in the fish skin and fins. After residing on its host for 4 weeks or more, the Lymphocystis cells rupture or fall off the host, spreading the infected cells in the water. The cells then either sink to the bottom of the tank and lie dormant or reattach to another host via a break in the skin or fins, or in the gills.
while there really isnt any formal medication for lympho, you can help this by maintaining optimum water quality, Feeding a healthy diet, including vitamin supplements such as selcon to the foods, and treat for secondary infections in a QT tank.

Thx for your feedback. Agree its not ich or velvet. I’ve had Lymph before on my scribble angel and flag fin and fought it off successfully. I’ve never seen lymph cover so much of the body. I also have other fish that are flashing, scratching against sand and having cleaner wrasse clean the gills. Might have lymph and flukes but again I’m in hypo situation which I thought killed flukes.......a bit confused on this one.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thx for your feedback. Agree its not ich or velvet. I’ve had Lymph before on my scribble angel and flag fin and fought it off successfully. I’ve never seen lymph cover so much of the body. I also have other fish that are flashing, scratching against sand and having cleaner wrasse clean the gills. Might have lymph and flukes but again I’m in hypo situation which I thought killed flukes.......a bit confused on this one.

One thing I considered in suggesting lympho is the oval shape of the dots

 

[Flame2hawk]

One thing I considered in suggesting lympho is the oval shape of the dots

Yes it might be lymph but the other symptoms on the other fish become something else. I guess its possible to have viral and flukes but again hypo should kill flukes......ugh!

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yes it might be lymph but the other symptoms on the other fish become something else. I guess its possible to have viral and flukes but again hypo should kill flukes......ugh!

have you tried a 5 minute Freshwater dip ?

 

[Flame2hawk]

Would have guessed that Keeping tank at 1.008/.09 for 35 days would be as effective in determining whether is or is not flukes as its going to be tough to catch w/o destroying rock work etc.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Can you get a short video of the fish? I think the tang is showing idiopathic mucus plugs- the is an article I posted here that discusses that (but nobody really knows what causes it).
Neobenedenia flukes won’t survive hypo like that, but there are brackish water flukes that show up sometimes that do.
Have you considered ending the hypo?
Jay

 

[Flame2hawk]

Can you get a short video of the fish? I think the tang is showing idiopathic mucus plugs- the is an article I posted here that discusses that (but nobody really knows what causes it).
Neobenedenia flukes won’t survive hypo like that, but there are brackish water flukes that show up sometimes that do.
Have you considered ending the hypo?
Jay

I’m afraid to end hypo as last time I did it got worse. But if we feel it would help this time I’m willing to try anything....

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I’m afraid to end hypo as last time I did it got worse. But if we feel it would help this time I’m willing to try anything....

How about going up to 1.012? Hat isn’t low enough for cryptocaryon, but a lot less stressful than 1.009
Jay

 

[Flame2hawk]

How about going up to 1.012? Hat isn’t low enough for cryptocaryon, but a lot less stressful than 1.009
Jay

Ok will give it a try. by process of elimination based on what I’ve treated for over the months, its not velvet, ich, or bacterial. That leaves flukes/worm or viral. Should I treat with prazi, general cure or just improve water quality and hope for the best? Please keep in ind that additional to the PT, I have other fish displaying similar growth, shinny dusting, scratching on sand and flashing as well as stationing themselves for cleaning from the wrasse. Thank you so much for your help!

 

[Flame2hawk]

Besides new pics above, I also am perplexed as we should eliminate flukes now too as Humblefish in his write ups and in response on line states that hypo kills flukes and Tank has had 3 separate 30-45 days hypo treatments in the last several months and fish are still scratching on sand and rock? So confusing.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Besides new pics above, I also am perplexed as we should eliminate flukes now too as Humblefish in his write ups and in response on line states that hypo kills flukes and Tank has had 3 separate 30-45 days hypo treatments in the last several months and fish are still scratching on sand and rock? So confusing.

No - that isn't correct. Hypo only kills certain species of flukes. Neobenedenia is the scourge that most people mean when they say "fluke". It is a Capsalid monogenean. There are other Capsalids that look essentially the same, but are brackish water, so hypo does nothing for them. Additionally, this group are egg layers and prazi doesn't affect the eggs, making it difficult to treat them.

That said, those are not flukes on the tang. Flukes are essentially invisible, and most are too small to see without a microscope. You will see the tissue damage they cause, but that has a different look, makes the fish look "tattered".

Another possibility includes Microsporidian xenomas on the tang - hopefully not, as there is no treatment.

If they were my fish, I'd move them up slowly to 1.020 and then dose Coppersafe for 30 days.


Jay

 

[Flame2hawk]

Thx however they have been on a regimen of copper power 3 different times using a Hanna checker. The first 2 times for 32 and 35 days. The third time stopped after 2 weeks because again it showed no signs of working and the fish were just tired of all of the copper. I did dose with prazi yesterday because as mentioned previously other fish are scratching against the sand and rock and some have small nodules like the PT. Fingers crossed and thx again. As you know Jay, this hobby is far from exact science and things are developing all the time that may or may not follow the traditional patterns of treatment. I’m convinced this is one of those times.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thx however they have been on a regimen of copper power 3 different times using a Hanna checker. The first 2 times for 32 and 35 days. The third time stopped after 2 weeks because again it showed no signs of working and the fish were just tired of all of the copper. I did dose with prazi yesterday because as mentioned previously other fish are scratching against the sand and rock and some have small nodules like the PT. Fingers crossed and thx again. As you know Jay, this hobby is far from exact science and things are developing all the time that may or may not follow the traditional patterns of treatment. I’m convinced this is one of those times.

Well, I guess I didn’t have a complete history, I didn’t know you had dosed copper already. That takes me right back to idiopathic mucus plugs on the tang. As far as the scratching, you may have gotten a brackish water fluke in there. Dosing with prazi may not permanently cure that, but you should see some relief.
Jay

 

[Flame2hawk]

Well, I guess I didn’t have a complete history, I didn’t know you had dosed copper already. That takes me right back to idiopathic mucus plugs on the tang. As far as the scratching, you may have gotten a brackish water fluke in there. Dosing with prazi may not permanently cure that, but you should see some relief.
Jay

Thx. How do you treat mucus plugs?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thx. How do you treat mucus plugs?

You don't, it is a skin reaction to some irritant. I've seen it show up in tangs after copper treatments and sometimes just spontaneously. Usually, you only see a few plugs, but I have seen some as bad as your tang. I'm basing this idea off of the first pictures - but the image isn't supper clear. Mucus plugs are pendulate, they protrude from the skin. You will not see them on fins. If the spots your fish have are also on the fins, or lay flat on the fish's body, then this is something else.

Jay

 

[Flame2hawk]

You don't, it is a skin reaction to some irritant. I've seen it show up in tangs after copper treatments and sometimes just spontaneously. Usually, you only see a few plugs, but I have seen some as bad as your tang. I'm basing this idea off of the first pictures - but the image isn't supper clear. Mucus plugs are pendulate, they protrude from the skin. You will not see them on fins. If the spots your fish have are also on the fins, or lay flat on the fish's body, then this is something else.

Jay

Are mucus plugs contagious? Does improving water quality help them gert over it or do they just have a slow death?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Not contagious in the strict sense, but the conditions that cause them can cause the issue in other fish. In most cases, improving water quality and time, they go away.

If you had a microscope, I would suggest trying to scrape one off and look at it - if you see undifferentiated mucus cells, then that's it - if you see cell structure, then it is a parasite of some sort.

Jay

 

[Flame2hawk]

Not contagious in the strict sense, but the conditions that cause them can cause the issue in other fish. In most cases, improving water quality and time, they go away.

If you had a microscope, I would suggest trying to scrape one off and look at it - if you see undifferentiated mucus cells, then that's it - if you see cell structure, then it is a parasite of some sort.

Jay

2 days into first dose of prazi and have observed no differences in PT however a bit less scratching from other fish. Wrasse still busy cleaning however...ugh.