What is missing? All-for-Reef vs changing water.

flyingscampi · May 2, 2023

I've had a RSR 200 XL running since the beginning of the year with a couple of small fish. I have a refugium with macroalgae but no skimmer. I maintain an alk of 8 with a daily 8 ml dose of Tropic Marin All-for-Reef. The salt is Tropic Marin Pro Reef.

Nutrients have always been low (NO3 <5, PO3 <0.03) so I didn't change any water except for small amounts when cleaning. I keep nutrients from bottoming out by overfeeding and occasionally adding NeoNitro and NeoPhos.

For various reasons the tank got neglected for a month and the corals (LPS) weren't extending properly and generally looked glum. Nutrients had bottomed out so I rectified this, but after a week the corals weren't responding.

I performed 4 x 25 litre water changes over a week (50% volume) and the corals are almost back to normal. I'll change 25 litres a week (12.5%) from now on.

I've read that AFR contains both major and trace elements, so I'm wondering what was missing from the tank that doesn't get replenished by AFR, but does by changing water with Pro Reef salt?

blecki · May 2, 2023

Don't assume it's something missing. It could also be something building up, that a water change diminished.

Randy Holmes-Farley · May 2, 2023

What are the nitrate and phosphate values now?

flyingscampi · May 2, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
What are the nitrate and phosphate values now?

Tested yesterday NO3 = 4.1, PO4 = 0.03

hunterallen40 · May 2, 2023

flyingscampi said:
I've read that AFR contains both major and trace elements, so I'm wondering what was missing from the tank that doesn't get replenished by AFR, but does by changing water with Pro Reef salt?

So the thing to realize here is that the AFR blend is fixed. AFR will add trace and minor elements, but I'm not sure "replenish" is a good word for it. You still need to do water changes with AFR to balance the water. This still doesn't completely balance things out (salt mixes aren't perfect, and you aren't doing a 100% water change), though, so I do recommend that you monitor your trace and minor elements with ICP to make sure you don't have any elements getting too elevated.

Hans-Werner · May 2, 2023

My personal observation is a bit strange and seems a bit contradictory: I see an slow but very continuous improvement in growth and color when dosing All-For-Reef. However, I see also better polyp opening and improvements after doing a water change with Pro-Reef.

How can that be? The additive is improving the quality of the saltwater, but adding fresh saltwater also seems an improvement?

Somehow consumption and growth seem to create their own quality. I also noticed this repeatedly when coral growth in a freshly installed tank is taking up and I am starting to dose Ca, KH and trace elements.

Consumption of macro nutrients may play a role in these observations.

rtparty · May 2, 2023

When it comes to benefits of water changes, trace element replenishment shouldn't even be in the top 5 or 10 reasons to do them. The biggest benefit of water changes is simply removing organic and inorganic compounds that buildup over time

geeked · May 2, 2023

rtparty said:
When it comes to benefits of water changes, trace element replenishment shouldn't even be in the top 5 or 10 reasons to do them. The biggest benefit of water changes is simply removing organic and inorganic compounds that buildup over time

Well, water changes doesn't stop that either. If it doesn't replace trace elements, it doesn't decrease inorganic or organic compounds either.

rtparty · May 2, 2023

geeked said:
Well, water changes doesn't stop that either. If it doesn't replace trace elements, it doesn't decrease inorganic or organic compounds either.

Not what I wrote but if I did your statement is still incorrect.

What if you run your tank at 80ppm of X element and get a batch of salt that only has 40ppm of that element? Now you’re not replacing anything but actually removing.

If replenishing elements is the goal, water changes aren’t the best or cheapest way to go about it.

Dan_P · May 2, 2023

flyingscampi said:
I've read that AFR contains both major and trace elements, so I'm wondering what was missing from the tank that doesn't get replenished by AFR, but does by changing water with Pro Reef salt?

My impression about coral is that small amounts of certain chemicals can annoy them. Performing a large enough water change to drop the concentration of those annoying chemicals might be enough to perk up the coral. Maybe skimming and GAC can substitute for water changes in the case of chemical removal but not adding trace elements unless you are very, very lucky and the annoying chemical chelates with trace elements and renders them less annoying. All speculation on my part

christwendt · May 2, 2023

I think I have a theory. I had the exact similar happen when I was just doing all for reef. I was missing something as my montipora caps were dull and not doing good. ( I had no acropora yet ). I started a new method called reef moonshiners which I still do with all for reef. The main difference I think what all for reef really lacked for me was iodine. It came back zero and I started to dose this daily my montipora looked great. I would notice large water changes also fixed the montipora which is similar to what you’re saying. But now I don’t do water changes. Well 10 gallons a month on a 140 total to clean sand. My tank stays great but mainly I’m dosing iodine daily now. For this reason I think all for reef and reef moon shiners method is perfect which most don’t do. I haven’t found any minor elements to be too high only too low which I dose and correct via reef moonshiner.

geeked · May 2, 2023

rtparty said:
Not what I wrote but if I did your statement is still incorrect.

What if you run your tank at 80ppm of X element and get a batch of salt that only has 40ppm of that element? Now you’re not replacing anything but actually removing.

If replenishing elements is the goal, water changes aren’t the best or cheapest way to go about it.

I agree. What is the point of a water change if not to replenish or remove?

rtparty · May 2, 2023

geeked said:
I agree. What is the point of a water change if not to replenish or remove?

Water changes are removing compounds and other things we can't test for. That is a fact

Spare time · May 2, 2023

All for reef doesn't have potassium, which is something to think about. I have one one icp after a few years and it was mostly fine.

Spare time · May 2, 2023

PS I do a no water change system and run ROX carbon in a reactor 24/7. I dose all for reef and potassium.

Randy Holmes-Farley · May 2, 2023

christwendt said:
For this reason I think all for reef and reef moon shiners method is perfect which most don’t do.

ICP based testing and dosing is a fine method, IMO, but I think it being perfect is an exaggeration. There are limitations to ICP testing (accuracy, lack of chemical speciation, detection limits, etc.) which make it a bit less than perfect, not even considering the costs.