What is the single water parameter a torch cant stand?

Reef Outfit · May 7, 2020

I tried keeping torch coral, I bought two, one died in two days and the other has been struggling for months but I dont think it will make it. I'm surely doing something wrong, but what?

I have all sorts of coral thriving in my tank and torches are the ONLY corals that die (sure, now and then a new difficult care frag won't aclimate to my tank just because and dies).

I understand from what I read that it isn't just me (seems to be a thing really) and people think it must have to do with something in the water. In fact, the first thing anyone asks about is water parameters, which make sense, but how-come torches are the only ones that have a problem with the water when everyone else is doing fine?

They must have a singular care. So, my question is what is this single thing (parameter) that only torches are highly sensible to?

I would love to keep a torch but I cant change the water everyday, there must be an explication.

Thanks for reading, if you can shed some light please do.

El_Guapo13 · May 7, 2020

Well, what are your parameters? Euphyllia in general like for some nutrients to be present, as in a bit of nitrate and phosphates. Nothing high, we are talking auper low levels.

Likewise, nothing really likes ammonia or nitrite.

Lastly, you can't have super strong flow. Torches like more than Frogspawn and Hammers, but you can't just hit it head on with the strength of a Jet Engine.

But yeah, we really need those parameters to get a better idea.

Beck · May 7, 2020

Do you have any other ephyllia?

Also make sure you tests are arcuate. Don't use old test kits and maybe have a lfs double check you parameters. I had a issue using old kit and thought my parameters were good.

ScottR · May 7, 2020

I’ve been keeping euphyllia for quite a long time. My key to survival is a good iodine dip before putting them in. They’re prone to infection more than most LPS. Iodine dip and you’ll keep them long term.

Miller535 · May 7, 2020

ScottR said:
I’ve been keeping euphyllia for quite a long time. My key to survival is a good iodine dip before putting them in. They’re prone to infection more than most LPS. Iodine dip and you’ll keep them long term.

Do you dip all LPS? What product do you use?

Xero · May 7, 2020

params? not so much params. unless they're just way off.

bad flow, cube tanks.

Reef Outfit · May 7, 2020

Thanks for your replies.

I understand and agree with the idea that parameters being off and/or fluctuating will kill anything, a little bit will kill the more sensitive and way off will kill the more hardy.

But before I check for parameters I'm thinking what will I have to do to correct them if they're off? I believe the answer to that could be water change. So, if I change my water enough I won't have bad parameters, at least not long enough or bad enough, to harm anything seriously, right? Well, thats what I do, I dont check for parameters, I just keep regular water changes with good salt. Because again, if they were off I would have to do a water change which I will routinely do anyway. I have a nano tank which it makes it doable.

To go along with my theory, six months into this 13.5 nano tank and now I'm able to keep anything from zoas to Acropora successfully. First time in the hobby and I took quite a beating, but loving it and it looks awesome.

Does this make any sense?

I have other Euphyllia, a beautiful neon tip hammer I got with 3 heads and now has a gazillion heads. I also have a frogspawn that is happy as can be. I'll show you.

I got all my test kits as per Mr Saltwater recommendations, they're all Salifert and a phosphate Hanna checker. They're all within expiration date. But I sure don't even trust my own eyes when comparing the colors on that chart, each kind of light seems to give me a different reading. Another point towards my crazy theory.

I dip all my corals. Everything besides fish and inverts. I use CoralRX. Seems like a great product.

I saw this Seachem Reef Iodide that said on the label that "Iodine is as toxic as chlorine and should never be used in a reef system. However, Iodide is safe as Chloride." Go figure.

I have two powerheads in opposite directions and try to give it a decent flow without blasting everything into oblivion, which is easy to do in such a tiny tank.

"Cube tanks" is perhaps the one that actually sounds the most reasonable to me, dont know why. Perhaps because its the only thing I cant rule out.

micro underwater universe

Hammer, most heads are tiny and behind so you cant see, now.

This guy got here just a while ago

11 head Duncan

Acro, monti. I bumped on the rack by accident so they closed up for the photo.

Sexy shrimp likes to pose for the camera

...

Check out that miserable torch in the center

Bonus

Xero · May 7, 2020

That's just something I've noticed over time. it's nearly impossible to get the type of randomized "back/forth" flow that torches like in a cube. Cubes just want to make a big whirlpool, and the flow ends up being very constant. Torches generally don't like being smacked in the face with the same direction of flow all day, although I hate to speak too broadly, because truthfully, I think there's at least two or three cryptic species of torches that we get in the hobby that science has yet to break apart, but I digress.

I have quite a few tanks at home, and my cubes never do well with torches, they'll do fine with hammers, frogspawn, all that stuff, but torches just wither away....I've even moved them from my cube tank to my other tank, only to have them fully recover. I've grown a fair amount of torches now, and the only thing that ever kills 'em is shading and flow....Well, short of just letting alkalinity drop to nothing, but that kills many things other than torches, too.

There's also one particular type of purple torch that I've just never seen do well, period. I was discussing it with someone and we believe that particular species is collected from a point with very hard to reproduce conditions.

ScottR · May 7, 2020

Miller535 said:
Do you dip all LPS? What product do you use?

I dip every coral using revive. I use iodine for all euphyllia and zoas. Also use H2O2 for all zoas.

Beck · May 8, 2020

I'm running a 93 cube and haven't had any issues with torches. My return splits into 2 one head flows down towards the center front, and the other down the back wall. On one corner I have a mp40 about 1/3rd way down. Here's a crappy pic I had on my phone. I wouldn't say the cube is your problem, but flow could be off. By the way your corals look great I'm sure your parameter are fine.

Xero · May 8, 2020

Beck said:
I'm running a 93 cube and haven't had any issues with torches. My return splits into 2 one head flows down towards the center front, and the other down the back wall. On one corner I have a mp40 about 1/3rd way down. Here's a crappy pic I had on my phone. I wouldn't say the cube is your problem, but flow could be off. By the way your corals look great I'm sure your parameter are fine.

Admittedly, a 93 cube is pretty large, and I imagine you can get a lot more flow going on in that tank. I didn't mean to sound so absolutist about it, but sometimes a little hyperbole drives the point across harder.

I tried to put an mp40 on my 60 cube and turned it into a dang wave-storm. I more recently put 3x mp10s on it, and i'm hoping maybe that helps. It's not that you can't get good flow in a cube, it's just harder, especially the smaller you go. I suspect in a larger cube, you have a better chance of fighting against that "whirlpool" effect

homer1475 · May 8, 2020

I have no problem with torches in my 80G cube.

I have 2 mp10's, 2 jebao pp8's, and a gyre, as well as RFG's on my dual return lines. I have 0 issue with random flow. lol

Xero · May 8, 2020

homer1475 said:
I have no problem with torches in my 80G cube.

I have 2 mp10's, 2 jebao pp8's, and a gyre, as well as RFG's on my dual return lines. I have 0 issue with random flow. lol

Hey, it only took 5 wavepumps and a RFG! LOL! Seriously though, this is why I ended up putting 3x mp10s on mine. I'm trying my best to turn that situation around, but I'm still hesitant to try another torch, as you can imagine.

Reef Outfit · May 8, 2020

ScottR said:
I’ve been keeping euphyllia for quite a long time. My key to survival is a good iodine dip before putting them in. They’re prone to infection more than most LPS. Iodine dip and you’ll keep them long term.

Thanks for the tip, I'm sure that helps. How big is your tank?

Reef Outfit · May 8, 2020

Beck said:
I'm running a 93 cube and haven't had any issues with torches. My return splits into 2 one head flows down towards the center front, and the other down the back wall. On one corner I have a mp40 about 1/3rd way down. Here's a crappy pic I had on my phone. I wouldn't say the cube is your problem, but flow could be off. By the way your corals look great I'm sure your parameter are fine.

I recently realized how flow is important. I was researching on it. Even if everything is on the spot it could sabotage the success of your tank. I suppose its very much underestimated by the community.

However, then again, what is this specific flow pattern (rather than water parameter, if thats fine) that a torch cant stand but EVERYBODY else is ok with?

I'm sure its very hard to please every different type of corals' specific needs in the same tank if you do want to have every single coral there is in the ocean, unless you probably have a huge tank with everything spot on, but it seems like torch should be classified as difficult care or something.

Otherwise, if it isn't super hard to get the right flow, then perhaps we should consider it an easy care coral given it is placed in a tank with a minimum of x gallons. If this is true, I don't know where the line would be drawn, but I'm sure a 13.5 gallon tank like mine is definitely below it.

That is a beautiful picture, those are huge. One day I'll have a big tank.

Xero · May 8, 2020

Albertoinbox said:
However, then again, what is this specific flow pattern (rather than water parameter, if thats fine) that a torch cant stand but EVERYBODY else is ok with?

it's the direction. Constant, steady direction, they hate. They want varied, randomized flow, coming from different directions.

I usually say mp10/mp40s in anti-sync modes. You need the back/forth jiggle. I should do a video about this some day.

Reef Outfit · May 8, 2020

Xero said:
That's just something I've noticed over time. it's nearly impossible to get the type of randomized "back/forth" flow that torches like in a cube. Cubes just want to make a big whirlpool, and the flow ends up being very constant. Torches generally don't like being smacked in the face with the same direction of flow all day, although I hate to speak too broadly, because truthfully, I think there's at least two or three cryptic species of torches that we get in the hobby that science has yet to break apart, but I digress.

I have quite a few tanks at home, and my cubes never do well with torches, they'll do fine with hammers, frogspawn, all that stuff, but torches just wither away....I've even moved them from my cube tank to my other tank, only to have them fully recover. I've grown a fair amount of torches now, and the only thing that ever kills 'em is shading and flow....Well, short of just letting alkalinity drop to nothing, but that kills many things other than torches, too.

There's also one particular type of purple torch that I've just never seen do well, period. I was discussing it with someone and we believe that particular species is collected from a point with very hard to reproduce conditions.

Thank you for stepping in and sharing. Experience goes a long way in this hobby.

Thats half way through the scientific method. You just need to test your hypothesis and draw a conclusion if the results confirm it. This thing that you moved them to a larger tank and they recovered is awesome, they just needed to have water from the same system and equal lights and flow.

But after Homer 1475 said he had a CUBE but it was 80 gallons big, your suggestion split in two in my head. I supposed when you mentioned it was because my tank was a cube you meant it had a very small capacity, not specifically the shape of a cube.

Should it be due to the fact that the tank is a cube format regardless of its capacity or the fact that the capacity is too low, regardless of the shape?

homer1475 · May 8, 2020

Xero said:
it's the direction. Constant, steady direction, they hate. They want varied, randomized flow, coming from different directions.

I usually say mp10/mp40s in anti-sync modes. You need the back/forth jiggle. I should do a video about this some day.

I would have to agree with flow. With all my pumps I'm able to get that randomized right to left, up and down not getting whipped around like crazy flow that torches like. They do seem to like quite a bit of flow on them, but not in one direction.

Xero · May 8, 2020

Albertoinbox said:
Thank you for stepping in and sharing. Experience goes a long way in this hobby.

Thats half way through the scientific method. You just need to test your hypothesis and draw a conclusion if the results confirm it. This thing that you moved them to a larger tank and they recovered is awesome, they just needed to have water from the same system and equal lights and flow.

But after Homer 1475 said he had a CUBE but it was 80 gallons big, your suggestion split in two in my head. I supposed when you mentioned it was because my tank was a cube you meant it had a very small capacity, not specifically the shape of a cube.

Should it be due to the fact that the tank is a cube format regardless of its capacity or the fact that the capacity is too low, regardless of the shape?

He's got a cube with 5 wavemakers in it and RFGs, lol. I mean, you can fight uphill battles all day, but it's a lot easier to make statements that get you 90% there, 90% of the time, than try to account for that last 10% of obscurity. I don't doubt that you can fight against the phenomena with a few factors at play: A larger cube that can take many wave pumps, the right rockscape, etc, etc. And it's not "JUST" the fact it's a cube, it's the flow patterns that often develop in a cube. It's not to say you couldn't get these bad flow patterns in other shaped tanks, however, I've seen this too many times now in cubes, which is why I made a general statement, however, it IS a generalized statement, so take it for what it is.

I actually didn't move them to a larger tank, rather, a smaller tank that's a rectangle. My 29g grows torches like mad. I've one that went from 5 heads to over 60 with a good 5-6" of skeletal growth. I've also had plenty of heads die from simply being shaded out from other heads, things like that, I generally think I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to keep them happy. I have some theories a bit less proven, like I've noticed smaller single-head frags have a high chance of not surviving, and I suspect this is because larger colonies sort of "share the slime" with each other between heads, for lack of better technical terms. I can't really prove this.

Truthfully, there's only so much "scientific method" you're going to get out of a hobby full of subjective opinions, many of these things are too difficult to eliminate variables for. BRS did a video about how flow effects SPS growth and I actually called out this same thing, because they did the test in a bunch of cube tanks. I suspect they really didn't vary flow angle/direction, but rather, just the intensity/velocity of the flow. There's a lot more factors than just "how much" flow, but rather, what angle, constant angle, etc. I'll see if i can post a recent picture of my tank for you though.