What Is wrong with my tank

[matthew.forsyth01]

I am suspicious of your test readings especially being that you used API kit. This test kits very inaccurate. I would suggest replacing it with red sea or salifert's

will do

 

[OrangeCountyReefer]

Please don't do a 90% water change. You need to age the water NOT refresh it. Ammolock is great and adding a bacteria would complement that. It will aid in the process of the cycling.

The goal here should be to save the livestock, you know the living animals. Removing ammonia from the water is how you will save them. And very little beneficial bacteria stays in the water column anyway. I would do the water change then add the beneficial bacteria

 

[Azedenkae]

Please don't do a 90% water change. You need to age the water NOT refresh it. Ammolock is great and adding a bacteria would complement that. It will aid in the process of the cycling.

I rarely respond directly to other people's opinions/replies as I do think most people have valid arguments, opinions, or stream of thoughts in some way, shape, or form. Especially because I do not like getting into heated debate with others on forums such as this, since this is supposed to be a hobby. However, I must say I absolutely disagree with your recommendation, except for the 'aid in the process of cycling' part as that is true. But so would the death of all the live stock in the tank, that'd aid with cycling too while we are at it. But.

1. The more important thing is to save the live stock. Ammolock is a temporary solution, and it needs one time, just one, where Ammolock loses efficacy and op forgets or can't dose Ammolock and ammonia has the opportunity to do some real harm.
2. You don't need 8ppm ammonia for cycling. You just need an amount of ammonia, and even if op do a 100% water change and reduce ammonia to 0, there will still be plenty of ammonia produced by all the live stock anyways, so there is no need for such high ammonia levels.
3. The nitrifiers predominantly live in biomedia, including rocks and sand. The water does not actually need to be 'aged'. especially with the lights on (to, you know, keep the corals and anemones alive) as most nitrifiers seem to be inhibited by light.
4. With the tank already set up for a month, and with nitrite being formed, there are already nitrifiers in the water. Most bottled microbe products does not really have that high of a concentration of nitrifiers, hence the reason why it can take time for a cycle to occur. The exceptions would only potentially be products like FritzZyme Turbo Start 900, where there is a concentrated amount of microbes.
5. Ammonia is one thing, but nitrite and nitrate is another. While nitrite admittedly is non-toxic to marine fish at lower concentrations, it can still really build up. We don't really know where op's nitrite concentration is at. More importantly, nitrate. While we can't trust the nitrate test due to the likely interference from nitrite, nonetheless if there has been nitrite oxidation going on over the past month, nitrate will be climbing, and if that is left to happen then it could get to the point of being harmful. And nitrate is not something that is locked up with Ammolock, as far as the product is advertised.

I am sorry, but with all honesty and sincerity, I must say your advice is terrible. I think you really need to look at the situation and realize what is more important at this point, and I would think it should obviously be - the health of the live stock.

This is all presuming that the readings are correct in the first place, of course.

 

[Dburr1014]

Wow, a little harsh.
Replacing all the water will not help the cycle at all. The ammonia is locked up. New salt water, imo, won't help the livestock. Unless it's aged a bit, perfect temperature, alk, ect...
The op seems new to the hobby. Changing all the water just seems like a task for him that is bound for failure. Not to mention he will probably have to do it several times. I would suggest a 20% wc several times over a 90%.
You guys seem like you are willing to help him. So I'm out of this thread.
Good luck op.

 

[mickeysreef <*))))<]

Wow, a little harsh.
Replacing all the water will not help the cycle at all. The ammonia is locked up. New salt water, imo, won't help the livestock. Unless it's aged a bit, perfect temperature, alk, ect...
The op seems new to the hobby. Changing all the water just seems like a task for him that is bound for failure. Not to mention he will probably have to do it several times. I would suggest a 20% wc several times over a 90%.
You guys seem like you are willing to help him. So I'm out of this thread.
Good luck op.

i think there's probably a lot of frustration from misinformation. doctors and lawyers run practices and not businesses, but the way they do things are usually not identical. hence, my practice is: i think this hobby is much like that.

i know that there actually can be bacteria in the water column, up until just a few months ago my advice would have been that there is very little to none there. and that is still sort of true for many tanks but it was discovered that in the ocean (this is found very far offshore) and in a very small % of reefers tanks, there is a beneficial bacteria in the water column. we wont know if OP has it unless we actually tested for it, my guess would be probably not but you never know.

with all that said, i would also suggest a massive water change because 8.0 is pretty high and i'd want t give the beneficial bacteria an opportunity to catch up to the ammonia without a bacterial bloom down the road which might also suck up oxygen and kill the livestock. and im not saying with 100% certainty that a bacterial bloom will happen or even if it did that livestock would die, but i am saying its probably wise to pull that variable out of the equation if possible.

anyway, do not take it personal and really you do have some helpful points. i always appreciate it when people take time to help me (im always asking for help in this hobby and in my practice of law) and others who need it. so dont stop and dont be angry, the entire community really does need people willing to help others (for the animals sake) and also do not forget that discourse is the path to knowledge and without a bit of argument we'd never get anywhere.

 

[Screwgunner]

While dosing ammonia lock i would do 20% water changes daily at 1 month you are at the high point of your ammonia it will drop . I do not like using any kind of chemical . But I do know ammo lock is only good for so many hours . And if it goes past that time and your anemone dies there is a nuke waiting to happen.

 

[Aqua Man]

Please post a picture of your live rock in better lighting. White light would be preferred.

Was there any bacteria added to kick the cycle into gear??

Are the fish breathing ok? Laying at bottom, gills pumping really fast?

 

[Azedenkae]

Wow, a little harsh.
Replacing all the water will not help the cycle at all. The ammonia is locked up. New salt water, imo, won't help the livestock. Unless it's aged a bit, perfect temperature, alk, ect...
The op seems new to the hobby. Changing all the water just seems like a task for him that is bound for failure. Not to mention he will probably have to do it several times. I would suggest a 20% wc several times over a 90%.
You guys seem like you are willing to help him. So I'm out of this thread.
Good luck op.

Yeah, very harsh.

Because again, at this point it is not so much about the cycle, but keeping the fish alive. You keep on talking about ammonia, forgetting about other factors like nitrate.

Also, if the water is currently perfect and one does a 100% water change, then absolutely that would just cause undue stress. Absolutely. But in this situation, that undue stress is preferable to potential death, so yes, new salt water imo will help the live stock, because it is the farrrrrr lesser of two evils. I still don't understand what you mean by 'aging' the water by the way.

As for a 20% water change, well if you think doing something like over 90% water change is gonna be a pain for op... if op does subsequent 20% water changes, op would need to do 16 of them to get 8ppm ammonia to fall below 0.25ppm. Maybe you'd rather 16 small water changes over one big one, but I feel that that would be way more effort. In total, op would then need to make up 320% of his tank's volume in salt water, versus like 90% or 100% or whatever a large water change would be. And that is presuming op has 8ppm ammonia, rather than being wayyy over 8ppm.

All of this presuming the readings are correct of course.

 

[OrangeCountyReefer]

I rarely respond directly to other people's opinions/replies as I do think most people have valid arguments, opinions, or stream of thoughts in some way, shape, or form. Especially because I do not like getting into heated debate with others on forums such as this, since this is supposed to be a hobby. However, I must say I absolutely disagree with your recommendation, except for the 'aid in the process of cycling' part as that is true. But so would the death of all the live stock in the tank, that'd aid with cycling too while we are at it. But.

1. The more important thing is to save the live stock. Ammolock is a temporary solution, and it needs one time, just one, where Ammolock loses efficacy and op forgets or can't dose Ammolock and ammonia has the opportunity to do some real harm.
2. You don't need 8ppm ammonia for cycling. You just need an amount of ammonia, and even if op do a 100% water change and reduce ammonia to 0, there will still be plenty of ammonia produced by all the live stock anyways, so there is no need for such high ammonia levels.
3. The nitrifiers predominantly live in biomedia, including rocks and sand. The water does not actually need to be 'aged'. especially with the lights on (to, you know, keep the corals and anemones alive) as most nitrifiers seem to be inhibited by light.
4. With the tank already set up for a month, and with nitrite being formed, there are already nitrifiers in the water. Most bottled microbe products does not really have that high of a concentration of nitrifiers, hence the reason why it can take time for a cycle to occur. The exceptions would only potentially be products like FritzZyme Turbo Start 900, where there is a concentrated amount of microbes.
5. Ammonia is one thing, but nitrite and nitrate is another. While nitrite admittedly is non-toxic to marine fish at lower concentrations, it can still really build up. We don't really know where op's nitrite concentration is at. More importantly, nitrate. While we can't trust the nitrate test due to the likely interference from nitrite, nonetheless if there has been nitrite oxidation going on over the past month, nitrate will be climbing, and if that is left to happen then it could get to the point of being harmful. And nitrate is not something that is locked up with Ammolock, as far as the product is advertised.

I am sorry, but with all honesty and sincerity, I must say your advice is terrible. I think you really need to look at the situation and realize what is more important at this point, and I would think it should obviously be - the health of the live stock.

This is all presuming that the readings are correct in the first place, of course.

+1 at the end of the day these are living animals, they should be the priority. I feel that people forget that sometimes in this hobby. I originally told the OP to take the livestock back to his LFS to hold until he can properly cycle the tank but he said that is not an option, so large water changes would be an immediate way to lower some of the ammonia levels in the tank and possibly give the animals a chance. Then adding a turbo start directly after to hopefully get things moving in the right direction.

 

[Dburr1014]

You guys keep talking to me when I said I'm out.
Getting the cycle out of the ammonia and nitrite is very important. Nitrate not so much. That can be handled, It may bloom some algae but so what? Is changing all the water so important to do that? Ammonia will kill, true. But it would have done that already at 8ppm. I'm only suggesting to get thru the hump of the cycle. Smaller water changes and bacteria will absolutely help.
I am carrying for the lives of the animals in this tank.
BRS did a study on mixing new saltwater. 8 to 24 hours before all the salts were mixed completely. I don't think the gills of the livestock would like salt crystals of new salt water on top of what they have been living in already. Maybe I only think that way, maybe not.
Look, I've been in this hobby for a long time. Since the early 90's. Never once lost livestock due to ammonia. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
I don't take the original post on my comment to badly cuz it was explained, but it seems this is now turning into a flame war instead of helping the op.
I degress, forget I commented at all. Back to the problem at hand, please.

 

[Azedenkae]

You guys keep talking to me when I said I'm out.
Getting the cycle out of the ammonia and nitrite is very important. Nitrate not so much. That can be handled, It may bloom some algae but so what? Is changing all the water so important to do that? Ammonia will kill, true. But it would have done that already at 8ppm. I'm only suggesting to get thru the hump of the cycle. Smaller water changes and bacteria will absolutely help.
I am carrying for the lives of the animals in this tank.
BRS did a study on mixing new saltwater. 8 to 24 hours before all the salts were mixed completely. I don't think the gills of the livestock would like salt crystals of new salt water on top of what they have been living in already. Maybe I only think that way, maybe not.
Look, I've been in this hobby for a long time. Since the early 90's. Never once lost livestock due to ammonia. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
I don't take the original post on my comment to badly cuz it was explained, but it seems this is now turning into a flame war instead of helping the op.
I degress, forget I commented at all. Back to the problem at hand, please.

Right, I think I will forget what you commented then and put you on ignore.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, but there are also plenty of wrong ways to do it. I will try one last time by sending through some articles you can read up on, but I don't expect that will change your view at all. But I'll try anyways. Feel free to do whatever, because after this I won't be seeing your posts anyways:

Effect of high nitrate-N on the growth and survival of juvenile and larval anemonefish, Amphiprion ocellaris

Growth and survival of juvenile and larval anemonefish, Amphiprion ocellaris, were compared at low and high levels of nitrate-N. Two 800-l pumped aqua…

www.sciencedirect.com

- 100 mg/l NO3-N stunts growth of Amphiprion ocellaris, seeming to be especially as time goes on.

Ammonia and nitrite toxicity to false clownfish Amphiprion ocellaris - Aquaculture International

False clownfish, Amphiprion ocellaris, is one of the most commercialized fish species in the world, highly produced to supply the aquarium market. The high stocking densities used to maximize fish production can increase ammonia and nitrite to toxic levels. In this study, A. ocellaris juveniles...

link.springer.com

- Suggests to avoid concentrations of NO2-N higher than 25 mg/l in water for juvenile Amphiprion ocellaris.

Nitrate increases zooxanthellae population density and reduces skeletogenesis in corals - Marine Biology

Very little information exists on the effects of nitrate on corals, although this is the major form in which nitrogen is prescrit in tropical eutrophie coastal waters. In this study we incubated nubbins ofPorites porites and explants ofMontastrea annularis in laboratory photostats illuminated by...

link.springer.com

- Nitrate reduces the rate of skeletogenesis of Porites porites and Montastrea annularis. Didn't even have to be that high of concentrations, only need 20 μM.

So yeah, plenty of peer-reviewed literature out there on this topic. The above are just a few examples I could find from a quick google scholar search.

I am sorry, but I doubt you'll care about any of that because it probably does not jive well with your experience or whatever. So feel free to read those articles or don't, or change your mind or don't or whatever. I won't really know your response anyways.

 

[vetteguy53081]

All these suggestions- Im having a gut feeling that you have all false readings and do understand that your closest LDS is about two hours away.
First reaction as an insurance is a 30% water change and with API - They are rarely correct. Do you jave A N Y reefing friends or clubs nearby in which someone would have a test kit other than API to double check your readings?
WITH THOSE LEVELS, YOUR TANK SHOULD HAVE BEEN WIPED OUT And therefore raises suspicion already

 

[Azedenkae]

All these suggestions- Im having a gut feeling that you have all false readings and do understand that your closest LDS is about two hours away.
First reaction as an insurance is a 30% water change and with API - They are rarely correct. Do you jave A N Y reefing friends or clubs nearby in which someone would have a test kit other than API to double check your readings?
WITH THOSE LEVELS, YOUR TANK SHOULD HAVE BEEN WIPED OUT And therefore raises suspicion already

I mean yeah, at the end of the day I still feel this can be a likelihood. As much as I like using the API test kits and they seem to work for me, this situation is just... yeah those numbers are so, so high. XD I mean sure ammolock locks things up and nitrite is not as toxic and nitrate may not have short term effects or whatever, but at the same time those numbers are really high.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I mean yeah, at the end of the day I still feel this can be a likelihood. As much as I like using the API test kits and they seem to work for me, this situation is just... yeah those numbers are so, so high. XD I mean sure ammolock locks things up and nitrite is not as toxic and nitrate may not have short term effects or whatever, but at the same time those numbers are really high.

Ammo lock is geared mainly for freshwater tanks and is an alternative and not a solution
Even locking it up, it still has to go somewhere often back into the tank hence the effectiveness of a water change

 

[Azedenkae]

Ammo lock is geared mainly for freshwater tanks and is an alternative and not a solution
Even locking it up, it still has to go somewhere often back into the tank hence the effectiveness of a water change

Totes agreed.