What would be the max sump height for this project?

Coach63 · Sep 9, 2015

I need the help of all plumbers, reefers, etc... to help me design my plumbing for a tank I am in the process of building. I want my DT in my family room (150 gallon) on a 33" stand and my sump in the garage that is only 7 inches lower than my family room floor. I have to run the plumbing in the crawl space with a span of about 45 feet to the garage. I tried drawing the layout as best to scale as possible. My question is how high can I put my sump (in the garage) to still get adequate drainage from my DT just using gravity? Of course I would like to have the sump as high off the ground so I don't have to bend over as much (I'll old) but I do not want the chance of the water backing up into the house because it is not draining fast enough. I will not be pushing a ton of water through my sump as it will only be about 1 1/2 times what my skimmer will handle.

I know resistance/distance plays a role in water movement. I really appreciate the help in this as I do not want to flood the house. Is there a better way of doing this? Will there be enough head height from the overflow? I plan on a bean animal. Do I measure from the top of the full siphon on the bean animal and as long as I am lower than that height on my sump am I good?
Thanks again.

143MPCo · Sep 9, 2015

...question, assuming the DT is not next to the wall adjacent to the garage?

Coach63 · Sep 9, 2015

No, it is across the room (family room and kitchen) approx 45 feet. I will be running four lines (three for the bean animal) to the sump and one line for the return. All will be running about 18 inches below the floor in the crawl space under the joists.

143MPCo · Sep 9, 2015

IMO, 24" to 27" would be fine and I would go no higher than 31" max taking into account the 7" dip in the garage.
That height would allow the sump to remain under the DT height and allow the overflow to drain, back flow would equalize in the lines and not cause an issue.

You will get some resistance from the fact that the water at the tail end needs to flow up-hill but the pressure from the water draining should be more than enough to compensate.

143MPCo · Sep 9, 2015

...that also means that in a power outage event you will have 45ft plus height of PVC runs to the DT and sump of standing water but, that's less of a concern as long as you don't have any leaks in the PVC

Coach63 · Sep 9, 2015

143MPCo said:
IMO, 24" to 27" would be fine and I would go no higher than 31" max taking into account the 7" dip in the garage.
That height would allow the sump to remain under the DT height and allow the overflow to drain, back flow would equalize in the lines and not cause an issue.

Thanks for your input. So you are saying I could go as high as 31" in my garage (from the floor) or 38" (including the 7 inch difference in floor height) as a max?

143MPCo · Sep 9, 2015

I would not go any height than 31" to the top of the sump, max.

evolved · Sep 16, 2015

Gravity doesn't work very well uphill...
Having a drain line as such can present a myriad of issues; it invites a clog if nothing else.

I would rethink this plan; any way you could make the drain lines run continuously downhill would be greatly preferable.

Coach63 · Sep 16, 2015

evolved said:
Gravity doesn't work very well uphill...
Having a drain line as such can present a myriad of issues; it invites a clog if nothing else.

I would rethink this plan; any way you could make the drain lines run continuously downhill would be greatly preferable.

I don't think there is any other way. So I have decided to raise the tank to 40" (40" steel stand) so the initial drop off the DT would be around a 52" drop, (40" stand and then 10" joist+ subfloor and flooring) then run about 30 feet horizontally then take about a 20" rise to get back into the garage. The distance between the bottom of the DT and exit for this run into the sump would be around 27 inches.
Do you know a different way to set this system up?
Thanks for your help.

evolved · Sep 17, 2015

To be frank, I would not execute any plan which does not ensure the drains only run downhill.

When you make a drain run uphill and trap water, especially when that is over a considerable length with a lot of water, you will experience flush/surge issue with the drain. Not only will such be noisy, but it also lends well to micro-bubbles, splashing/salt creep, and fluctation heights in your overflow and sump. Worst of all, it give detritus, sponges, and inverts a place to collect, which will eventually lead to a clog. When it clogs, the display will overflow until your ATO and/or return chamber of the sump run dry, making a mess of your stand, home, and return pump. It's simply not worth it.

If it helps, one idea could be to have your sump overflow to the display, but that may still present a plumbing routing issue for you.

mfinn · Sep 18, 2015

I see a ton of problems too, with your plan.

Coach63 · Sep 18, 2015

Could you guys help me with the redesign? I would like all of the support system out in the garage so I can increase the size of everything for stability. The garage floor sits 7" below the main floor where the DT will be (about 30 feet from each other). If I run the lines under the house like I want, it will have to drop approx 22" below the main floor then rise that distance and more to get to a height where it will flow into a sump. I thought having a stand that is 40" would give me plenty of height to overcome that 2 foot or so rise needed at the sump end. Please help me come up with a better plan. This is my first large build.
Is everyone saying I am stuck with just a sump under the tank?

mfinn · Sep 18, 2015

Unless you can move the tank next to a wall that is next to your garage, I would say you are limited to a sump under or next to the stand.
Even if you get it to flow uphill, the flow IMO would be considerably less than what it would be with a straight drop.
That would allow sponges and other critters to grow faster and would slow the flow even more.

While it's good to go as large as possible with your sump, many people have very stable tanks with sumps under the stand.
Maybe it's time to design a stand that is strong, without using materials that take up interior space.
Maybe a little larger footprint, then a custom sump that utilizes every inch inside the stand.

mfinn · Sep 18, 2015

Also figure in for a power failure with your original design.
The water would stop flowing, but the pipe would still have water in it at the height of where it enters into the sump, all the way back to the tank at the same height.
Then when the power came back on and the water started flowing into the drains at the tank, only a small amount of water ( from the tank drain to the height it stopped flowing) would be trying to push all the water that stayed in the pipe uphill into the sump.

evolved · Sep 18, 2015

Coach63 said:
If I run the lines under the house like I want, it will have to drop approx 22" below the main floor then rise that distance and more

And that's the heart of the issue; you can't run the drain lines like that.
What's below the main floor? Any room for the sump there?
If you really want the sump in the garage, stop thinking about running the drain lines below the floor and start thinking about how you could run them 30-40" ABOVE the floor.

If that's not possible, then: