What Would You Do?

[Juano908]

A bit of my system background and my situation:
3 Years and 1 moth Old, SPS dominated.
Regular 75 gals DT.
40B DIY sump/ Ref.
Total water volume: 80 - 90 gals.
60 - 70 lbs ReefCleaners rock.
1 1/2 - 2 inch Aragonite Sand Bed.
Reef Octopus Classic 1000sss( I think, bought it used) Skimmer running 24/7.
ReefBreeders Photon 48 v1 LED (running 10 hours total, 1 hour 50% Blue at beginning and 1 hour 50% Blue at the end of photo. 8 hours 80% Blue with 2 x 54w Coral+ ATI T5.
2 x Jebao Crossflow CP40 running at moderate flow, 1 on each side of the tank.
8 - 15 gals WC every 3 to 4 weeks using a mix of RC and IO Saltmix.
I dose 2 part via BRS dosing pumps.
Cal: 430 (Redsea)
Alk: 7.5 - 8.5dkH (Hanna Checker)
Mag: 1200 (Redsea)
NO3: 5 to 7 (Salifer) (Dosing Potassium Nitratewith BRS dosing pump, 2ml every 12 hours)
Po4: 0.049ppm (Hanna Phosphorus ULR).
I only feed 2 cubes of frozen Mysis, Brine shrimp at night and Seaweedin the afternoon as soon as I get home from work and 1 - 2 times per week I feed the tank with 4 drops of Korallen Coral Vitalizer.
Fish I have are a pair of Clowns, Yellow Tang, Purple Tang, Hippo Tang, Leopard Wrasse, Orange Back Wrasse, Cleaner Wrasse and a pair of Cardinals....CUC is limited to around 10 to 15 Snails.
Problem is that my SPS are all pale or Brown in coloration and if I add a new frag it losses coloration within a week or 2...growth is normal.
With this parameters algae start growing in the DT and Ref. and if I get the nutrients lower algae disappear but corals get worse....now what would you do wonder this situation to get corals colors back with none or minimal algae.
Any input will be really appreciated and if there is any question pls let me know.
Thanks a lot in advance.

 

[Greybeard]

I'd start by begging, borrowing, or buying a par meter.

Everything you've said looks good. Based on type and quantity, your lights don't appear to be a problem, but until you've measured, it, you don't really know what you've got.

You gave a bunch of measurements... but didn't mention salinity... I'd probably cross check, just to make sure whatever you're using to measure salinity isn't out of calibration. You also didn't mention pH, or daily pH swing.

After getting a good Par reading, and knowing without a doubt that salinity and pH were stable and in your target range, I'd probably send a water sample to Triton. See what they have to say.

Only after I'd done that would I perhaps start looking at one of the coloration lines... Korallen, Red Sea, Brightwell, Aquaforest, they all offer a line of additives intended to bring out colors in corals. No, I don't use any of them, but in your shoes, I might start looking at them... carefully. I sure wouldn't be in any hurry to start dosing something else. I've seldom had much luck in dosing stuff I can't measure.

 

[Juano908]

I'd start by begging, borrowing, or buying a par meter.

Everything you've said looks good. Based on type and quantity, your lights don't appear to be a problem, but until you've measured, it, you don't really know what you've got.

You gave a bunch of measurements... but didn't mention salinity... I'd probably cross check, just to make sure whatever you're using to measure salinity isn't out of calibration. You also didn't mention pH, or daily pH swing.

After getting a good Par reading, and knowing without a doubt that salinity and pH were stable and in your target range, I'd probably send a water sample to Triton. See what they have to say.

Only after I'd done that would I perhaps start looking at one of the coloration lines... Korallen, Red Sea, Brightwell, Aquaforest, they all offer a line of additives intended to bring out colors in corals. No, I don't use any of them, but in your shoes, I might start looking at them... carefully. I sure wouldn't be in any hurry to start dosing something else. I've seldom had much luck in dosing stuff I can't measure.

Thanks a lot Greybeard, totally forgot those important parameter... I did tested my lights with a Parmetter and at top of the tank is around 400 PAR and around 150 PAR at the sand Bed, salinity: 1.026 ( refractometer frequently calibrated with Pinpoint Salinity Monitor 53.0 mS = 1.026 SG Calibration Fluid.
pH: 7.90 - 8.0 day and 7. 75 at night.
I was once dosing Red Sea Coral Coloration Components ABCD but did not see any changes....I’ve been thinking about doing ICP testing and also thinking about Fauna Marin Balling Light Elements with the 2 Part Dosing.

 

[jda]

Parameters look good. 5n and .05p are good.

You need to turn the RB down or get different lights. 400 PAR from T5 or MH is fine, but that can stress SPS from LED and especially the white in the V1 being a bit more damaging. I would let the T5s do most of the lifting with a 10-12 hour photoperiod and let a mostly blue V1 fill in for 4-5 hours. IMO, this is all about the lights. Do you have access to a T5 or MH unit that you could experiment with for a few months?

This is probably no issue, but some people have reported trace metals introduced by Chinese pumps - none of this was wholly substantiated, but many things never are and we just have to rely on a plethora of anecdotes. Maybe a Triton test is a good idea. RC and IO are good salts, so there is no chance of any contanimates there.

 

[theMeat]

Would start using a gravel vacuum/siphon thingy with some small water changes. Do around a sixth of the sandbed each time. If you have any rubble rock or deep sand bed time to stir things up. Not too much at one time. Turkey baste the rocks with water changes. If you have matrix, marinepure, or the likes, time to rinse some now, some later

 

[Jason mack]

The only thing I would like too add is I see your mag is 1200 .. that’s a little bit low for my liking I would certainly check it and if it’s correct raise it up too 1300-1350..

 

[cracker]

400 PAR from T5 or MH is fine, but that can stress SPS from LED

Could You speak more on this? What is the difference? Thanks

 

[jda]

I am going to talk SPS here since that is what was posted about.

The supposition is that there are peaks and waves from white diodes (and others to a lesser degree) that harm corals in high quantities. This is why you have to keep LED turned down where more than double the light from a better spectrum light source will have the same coral thrive. It is bad quality, not quantity. Nobody is really for-sure why, but if anybody wants to test, I can put a 10k bulb into one of my halides and give some corals 600-750+ PAR and they will thrive where the same corals might die in another tank under 400 PAR from LED.

This is why a lot of folks caution to "keep the whites down" even though they do not really know why. Nobody really knows why for sure, but it seems to be a universal truth anymore.

The basic ideas is that, especially with SPS and even moreso with acropora, the coral can do OK with bad waves as long as everything else is good, but if a few more things start to go bad, then the coral cannot fight off the bad waves from the LEDs and "overcome." You see a lot more middling water quality and stability tanks do better with T5 and MH than you do with LED because the light is higher quality. The best LED tanks use units without white diodes, they seem to turn them up to 100% on all channels and raise them up really high for lower PAR in the tank.

Even the non-white diode panels/units can still harm coral with large PAR, but not as bad as the fixtures with lots of white diodes.

Sorry for the TLDR.

 

[Juano908]

Would start using a gravel vacuum/siphon thingy with some small water changes. Do around a sixth of the sandbed each time. If you have any rubble rock or deep sand bed time to stir things up. Not too much at one time. Turkey baste the rocks with water changes. If you have matrix, marinepure, or the likes, time to rinse some now, some later

I do that with the sand and the rocks but most of the time there’s a lot of detritus in the sump, I only vacuum my sump like 3 to 4 times per year, lol.

 

[Juano908]

I am going to talk SPS here since that is what was posted about.

The supposition is that there are peaks and waves from white diodes (and others to a lesser degree) that harm corals in high quantities. This is why you have to keep LED turned down where more than double the light from a better spectrum light source will have the same coral thrive. It is bad quality, not quantity. Nobody is really for-sure why, but if anybody wants to test, I can put a 10k bulb into one of my halides and give some corals 600-750+ PAR and they will thrive where the same corals might die in another tank under 400 PAR from LED.

This is why a lot of folks caution to "keep the whites down" even though they do not really know why. Nobody really knows why for sure, but it seems to be a universal truth anymore.

The basic ideas is that, especially with SPS and even moreso with acropora, the coral can do OK with bad waves as long as everything else is good, but if a few more things start to go bad, then the coral cannot fight off the bad waves from the LEDs and "overcome." You see a lot more middling water quality and stability tanks do better with T5 and MH than you do with LED because the light is higher quality. The best LED tanks use units without white diodes, they seem to turn them up to 100% on all channels and raise them up really high for lower PAR in the tank.

Even the non-white diode panels/units can still harm coral with large PAR, but not as bad as the fixtures with lots of white diodes.

Sorry for the TLDR.

Thanks a lot for the long explanation, lol....I’m only running the blue channel and the 2 T5, White channel if completely off....I don’t have another light to try but I’ll try to get 2 more T5s.

 

[Juano908]

The only thing I would like too add is I see your mag is 1200 .. that’s a little bit low for my liking I would certainly check it and if it’s correct raise it up too 1300-1350..

I’m bringing the Mag higher, 1200 is low to me too., now how fast can I bring the Mag in a day?

 

[Jason mack]

I’m bringing the Mag higher, 1200 is low to me too., now how fast can I bring the Mag in a day?

Mag can be raised quite fast without complications.. but I wouldn’t raise it more than 100 ppm in a day and doing it over a couple of days is probably better still

 

[Juano908]

Mag can be raised quite fast without complications.. but I wouldn’t raise it more than 100 ppm in a day and doing it over a couple of days is probably better still

Ok, I’ll do that.. thanks.

 

[ZoWhat]

SPS is the work of the DEVIL HIMSELF..... they're the most finicky corals ever..... not worth my time, my $$$ and my anger going off the charts to watch them grow for 2 yrs and then die in 3 days for some random reason.

Definition of Insanity is: doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result each time.

I dont understand anyone who buy $1k worth of SPS over 2yrs, then wait for them to die in 2yrs......then go out and buy another round of $1k worth of SPS, then they die in 2yrs,......and they do this over and over again.

LFS love SPS buyers, repeat biz!


.

 

[Seminoles76]

I agree with Greybeard and would send a Triton sample in. The parameters you posted if stable look good.

The par meter will give you peace of mind. I’m not familiar with the reefbreeder, but if lighting was in fact your problem, I would say you are in the low end of the par spectrum if you are not cored up.

The last thing I would say is that your alk is low compared to your water change salt which I’m guessing is coming in with a dkh of about 12 or so compared to your 7.5 that you posted. This could be a long shot for your problem but it is something I would correct if the SPS were not coloring up.

Hope you get it sorted out.

 

[Juano908]

I agree with Greybeard and would send a Triton sample in. The parameters you posted if stable look good.

The par meter will give you peace of mind. I’m not familiar with the reefbreeder, but if lighting was in fact your problem, I would say you are in the low end of the par spectrum if you are not cored up.

The last thing I would say is that your alk is low compared to your water change salt which I’m guessing is coming in with a dkh of about 12 or so compared to your 7.5 that you posted. This could be a long shot for your problem but it is something I would correct if the SPS were not coloring up.

Hope you get it sorted out.

Thanks a lot for your input, I raised the Alk to 8.9, did a 15gal WC, changed one of the Coral+ T5 for a Blue+ and ordered an ATI ICP Test kit.....let’s see what’s the results are.
Thanks again.

 

[Juano908]

Water samples when out yesterday, did some water testing at the same time I collected the water samples for comparison.

 

[Seminoles76]

Sounds good. Can't wait to see the results. At least that test will give you some peace of mind. Hopefully, you will get some direction of where to look after the results come back.

 

[Juano908]

Sounds good. Can't wait to see the results. At least that test will give you some peace of mind. Hopefully, you will get some direction of where to look after the results come back.

Yeah, I don’t know if it’s me but I think some corals are showing better coloration after what I’ve did with the lights....I gave me a frag of Reverse Superman Monti that only had color in the Polyps and after a week in my tank the base is turning pinkish....first time I see a coral turning for good in my tank, lol.

 

[Seminoles76]

Yeah, I don’t know if it’s me but I think some corals are showing better coloration after what I’ve did with the lights....I gave me a frag of Reverse Superman Monti that only had color in the Polyps and after a week in my tank the base is turning pinkish....first time I see a coral turning for good in my tank, lol.

That’s great. Was the only thing you did with the lights is swap one C+ for a B+?