What's the deal with ORA?

[Chrisv.]

I'm aware. I don't think showing pictures of it helps at all. Literally just a picture of dead fish layed out to dry. How horrible. Wait. Let's take pictures and show all the aquarists what a horrible hobby they have.
Take a hike!
D

Many people, especially new people, are not aware. Should this be hidden?

 

[A Young Reefer]

How is this thread still open with pictures like that?

I fail to see your point.
did you ever go to a fish market?
As mentioned above such images would raise awareness on what reality is, no sugar coating.

 

[Tonycass12]

I fail to see your point.
did you ever go to a fish market?
As mentioned above such images would raise awareness on what reality is, no sugar coating.

Exactly right and it shouldn't be sugar coated. We can't ask for better practice from suppliers without transparency.

 

[adittam]

Nothing to do with ORA, but very relevant to the CB discussion in general...my CB yellow tang (Jeff Goldblum) is thriving. I got him directly from @Biota_Marine in January of this year, and he's more than doubled in size with gorgeous coloration. Here's a recent pic...lots more progress pics and videos starting on page 3 of my build thread.

 

[62518161]

I'm going to say something controversial: if a captive bred fish dies in the supply chain, I am less concerned. It wasn't harvested from a wild reef. While it is sad that they die, there is no environmental consequence and therefore idk... Of course I want all fish to do well, but I am more concerned about the health and wellbeing of the wild reefs than any individual fish. So I support captive bred fish specifically because if/when they die, there is no more consequence than if a goldfish or a guppy dies.

If a fish dies a fish dies. What difference does it make where it came from? You talk about goldfish and guppies. How much does a fish have to cost For their life to be worth something?

 

[Biota_Marine]

Nothing to do with ORA, but very relevant to the CB discussion in general...my CB yellow tang (Jeff Goldblum) is thriving. I got him directly from @Biota_Marine in January of this year, and he's more than doubled in size with gorgeous coloration. Here's a recent pic...lots more progress pics and videos starting on page 3 of my build thread.

We love Jeff!

 

[Biota_Marine]

If a fish dies a fish dies. What difference does it make where it came from? You talk about goldfish and guppies. How much does a fish have to cost For their life to be worth something?

I understand what Chrisv is saying here, and it's part of our thought process, too. When captive bred fish are on the market, they replace wild caught fish. That means for every captive bred fish in an aquarium, the wild caught fish gets to stay in the ocean and fill their role there. When captive bred fish die, the silver lining is that they do not represent a fish that was taken off the reef. Of course captive bred fish have as much, if not more value, than wild caught fish. Since we are spawning these pets from captive broodstock, we love and care for these fish since they were just a twinkle in their parents' eyes. In a perfect world, no fish would die in an aquarium. Captive bred fish are even less likely than wild caught fish to die unexpectedly given proper conditions because they are more hardy and already conditioned to life in aquariums and the prepared foods we have available to us as hobbyists. It's a win-win!

 

[davidcalgary29]

If a fish dies a fish dies. What difference does it make where it came from? You talk about goldfish and guppies. How much does a fish have to cost For their life to be worth something?

There's another aspect to this: I've talked to a number of sellers, and they can't move captive-bred fish with cosmetic flaws. This especially seems to be a problem for some of the big-ticket fish, such as captive-bred yellow tangs, which typically go for about $200-$400 CAD (when available). I know that getting the fish with the right look is important for some people, but yeesh: one seller felt that he had to caution me that the fish that I was buying had a visible lateral line.

 

[i cant think]

Captive bred fish are even less likely than wild caught fish to die unexpectedly given proper conditions because they are more hardy and already conditioned to life in aquariums and the prepared foods we have available to us as hobbyists.

I agree with the rest but I’m intrigued at this, what about other factors;
- Shipping stress
- Potential issues gained during shipping (Mouth issues for example).

Surely a wild caught fish has the same chances of a CB fish with death? Just there’s more wild caught fish that are brought in, resulting in more deaths.

 

[davidcalgary29]

I agree with the rest but I’m intrigued at this, what about other factors;
- Shipping stress
- Potential issues gained during shipping (Mouth issues for example).

Surely a wild caught fish has the same chances of a CB fish with death? Just there’s more wild caught fish that are brought in, resulting in more deaths.

I can only provide you with anecdotal evidence, but all of my fish -- whether wild-caught or captive-bred -- are shipped to me, unless I make the ten-hour drive to pick them up myself. Most of them come from Ontario, which is a three-day journey via courier. Some have come in summer, and some in the depths of winter (once at -40C), and almost all of them have survived the journey.

The only difference that I've noticed is that none of the captive-bred specimens have developed disease while in quarantine. I've had two shipments of wild-caught specimens that have been infected with some pathogen (and have required treatment).

 

[HBtank]

The notion that CB bred fish could be cared for the same (or more poorly) than a WC fish just seems inherently silly. One was taken from the ocean and may not have even eaten since being collected. The other was entirely tank raised, fed, and grown by the breeder. And there are obvious synergies to adapting to aquarium environments in that process, like eating prepared foods, etc…

Not so sure how much the rest matters (company politics etc.). Shipping practices maybe.

 

[i cant think]

I can only provide you with anecdotal evidence, but all of my fish -- whether wild-caught or captive-bred -- are shipped to me, unless I make the ten-hour drive to pick them up myself. Most of them come from Ontario, which is a three-day journey via courier. Some have come in summer, and some in the depths of winter (once at -40C), and almost all of them have survived the journey.

The only difference that I've noticed is that none of the captive-bred specimens have developed disease while in quarantine. I've had two shipments of wild-caught specimens that have been infected with some pathogen (and have required treatment).

I was more thinking on the lines of if they ever bred wrasses (Specifically Halichoeres, Macropharyngodon, Anampses) or similar and how they’d deal with them almost always pushing down on the bag and damaging their mouths.

Also things like CB Valenciennea… You NEED to get them nutrients almost constantly just to have them survive let alone thrive through transportation.

 

[fish farmer]

I agree with the rest but I’m intrigued at this, what about other factors;
- Shipping stress
- Potential issues gained during shipping (Mouth issues for example).

Surely a wild caught fish has the same chances of a CB fish with death? Just there’s more wild caught fish that are brought in, resulting in more deaths.

CYANIDE COLLECTION.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I'm aware. I don't think showing pictures of it helps at all. Literally just a picture of dead fish layed out to dry. How horrible. Wait. Let's take pictures and show all the aquarists what a horrible hobby they have.
Take a hike!
D

This is the Reality of our hobby. We don't like to see these dead fish, but Not seeing the picture on our phone, doesn't mean it isn't there.

A lot more fish are wild collected, than actually ever make it into an aquarium. That means a lot of death along the way. It may hurt feelings, but that's what it is.

Pretending there isn't an issue didn't didn't help it go away.

 

[Chrisv.]

If a fish dies a fish dies. What difference does it make where it came from? You talk about goldfish and guppies. How much does a fish have to cost For their life to be worth something?

It has nothing to do with cost, or even individual fish. It's about the health of the wild reef. I eat fish, and I eat other animals. My position here is not based on the death of the fish. It's based on the detrimental collection and shipping practices.

To be clear, I see farmed fish as any other livestock. Worthy of respect as a living thing, but expendable as livestock. What makes captive bred clownfish any different from tilapia?

It's about protecting the worlds oceans and reefs.

I agree with the rest but I’m intrigued at this, what about other factors;
- Shipping stress
- Potential issues gained during shipping (Mouth issues for example).

Surely a wild caught fish has the same chances of a CB fish with death? Just there’s more wild caught fish that are brought in, resulting in more deaths.

Before leaving the fish farm, the farmed fish are (in theory) at peak health, well fed, prepared for shipping in a clean controlled facility, and then driven to an airport where they are shipped to the door of a customer.

When a fish is collected in the south pacific, it has an unknown parasite load. it's kept on a holding tank on a boat (not always a 1 day trip). Then it goes to an island holding facility. It is shipped to LA where it's pooled with other stressed hungry fish with unknown parasite loads, them to the LFS, then to me. There are so many opportunities along the way for fish to die.

I really don't think this is a numbers game. I think a higher percentage of wild fish die. Jay mentioned having done studies that demonstrate, if I'm not mistaken.

Not so sure how much the rest matters (company politics etc.). Shipping practices maybe.

Idk how much the rest matters, but the original point of this thread was to discuss the treatment of ORA employees. It does matter to me that employees are treated well. I think they will do a better job when they are happy and I think it's also a decent way to run a company.

I, for one, am happy to see @Biota_Marine here, because as a consumer, I do want them to know that we care about our fish, but also about the people who farm them. If I knew a company treated employees badly, I would be less likely to buy their products.

There's another aspect to this: I've talked to a number of sellers, and they can't move captive-bred fish with cosmetic flaws.

Honestly, this is a big factor in captive breeding of any kind. Breeders cull livestock to maintain product quality. In the absence of selective pressure and with higher chances of in-breeding, it's nessecary. I think this is an important step for many reasons, but keep in mind, that culls are not impacting the wild reef. It's tilapia at that point. A sad reality, but honestly pretty important to keep in check if we want the captive bred market to grow. $250 for a yellow tang is one thing, but $250 for a fish that's not in good form is another. When culls make it into the market, they hurt the marketability of other captive bred fish by building a sentiment in the hobby that captive bred fish are not as good as wild fish.

 

[davidcalgary29]

Honestly, this is a big factor in captive breeding of any kind. Breeders cull livestock to maintain product quality. In the absence of selective pressure and with higher chances of in-breeding, it's nessecary. I think this is an important step for many reasons, but keep in mind, that culls are not impacting the wild reef. It's tilapia at that point. A sad reality, but honestly pretty important to keep in check if we want the captive bred market to grow. $250 for a yellow tang is one thing, but $250 for a fish that's not in good form is another. When culls make it into the market, they hurt the marketability of other captive bred fish by building a sentiment in the hobby that captive bred fish are not as good as wild fish.

Certainly...but I'm whining more about fickle customers than I am about aspects of commercial husbandry. I'm perfectly happy to buy "incomplete" colour morphs (or that tang with the visible lateral line), as my concerns lie in the health and vigour of the fish, and not its perceived cosmetic imperfections. It just reminds me of the supermarket practice of requiring cosmetically perfect fruits and vegetables even though the ugly fruit is just as nutritious.

I will always buy a captive-bred fish if I have a choice...but I honestly think that purchasing wild-grown coral is a much, much worse environmental problem than buying wild-caught fish.

 

[BriansBrain]

I certainly did not mean to restir a pot here lol. However..

What makes captive bred clownfish any different from tilapia?

I’m 110% for captive breeding and sustainability for our HOBBY and for our oceans/reefs. There’s a huge difference in a clownfish vs tilapia. One is raised for a pet for a hobby in your living room and one is raised for a food source

 

[HBtank]

I certainly did not mean to restir a pot here lol. However..


I’m 110% for captive breeding and sustainability for our HOBBY and for our oceans/reefs. There’s a huge difference in a clownfish vs tilapia. One is raised for a pet for a hobby in your living room and one is raised for a food source

That’s more a distinction without a difference.

 

[BriansBrain]

My wife is trying to do it right with her tank and only having captive raised fish and aquacultured corals in her tank (except from a few of my tank’s lps overflow). We just want to support the companies doing it right with our hard earned money. @Biota_Marine and Jake there has been great

 

[Chrisv.]

That’s more a distinction without a difference.

Agreed. One being prettier does not give it more of a right to live.