What's the deal with ORA?

[A Young Reefer]

Honestly the only place I bought “designer” clownfish with success from is ORA. I have bought three separate pairs on separate occasions from random farms: 1) black snowflake. 2) black faced frostbites with a very unique pattern beautiful specimens. 3) a pair of one domino and one snow storm. All of them died from velvet on the first day of qt.
I then had the opportunity to purchase a pair of wyomings from ORA. Happy and alive to this day.

 

[Chrisv.]

Even if they’re deformed? Look at CB royal grammas, they look deformed compared to a WC RG. I like CB yes however if they keep breeding deformed fish then the less likely I’ll buy CB. I mean look at Yellow Tangs for example, they come in unhealthy with HLLE. They grow and many of them gain just a white face instead of that solid yellow, if I had a YT with just a white Face ID rather swap it for a WC indonesian YT.

There certainly is a lot of room for improvement. The breeders should be more aggressive with their culling. In the koi industry it’s common for koi to be culled 5-7 times before sale. The first cull is often a 95% cut, where only 5% move to the next level.

ironically, the key to producing higher quality fish is probably to kill more along the way.

I agree that I’m constantly seeing even clownfish with poor body conformation. Still, an alarmingly large proportion of people who keep marine fish are going to buy and kill a few clownfish and then leave the hobby. Since that is true, I’d rather them kill aquacultured clowns than WC clowns. Zero impact on the reef. No difference between aquaculture clowns and aquaculture tilapia.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I haven’t bought from ORA recently, but one truism for all marine animal propagators is that they need to provide a very good level of care else the juvenile animals die and they then have no inventory. A wholesaler just needs to keep their fish alive for a few days. That doesn’t speak to the work environment for people there…..

Jay

 

[GlassMunky]

It's really hard to get a picture from some anonymous posts (likely from at least one or two disgruntled employees). I'm sure there's an element of truth there though and the reality is probably somewhere in-between.

I'm fairly certain the working and survival conditions for wild-caught fish in the Indo-Pacific probably make ORA look like a trip to Disneyland by comparison.

I mean sure, but at the same time, did you actually go to the site and read the reviews? They span back A LONG TIME, like over 5-6 years and almost every review is similar. So it’d be weird if every person for 6 years all had the same bad thing to say if it wasn’t at least partially true….

 

[Tamberav]

The first captive bred clowns and dottys were more deformed than fish you can buy today. Ya you can still find stuff that should have been culled but the point is… over time they get better at breeding and raising these fish.

It is apparent with the yellow tang as well. I got to see the very first batch they made in person and I promise you they are improving.

I am not sure mandarins are deformed. If they are, it’s not very noticeable.

Jay makes a good point about the poor treatment of wild fish. Like I said… lots of skinny mandarins from the wild show up. I used to have wild ones years ago but would go with a captive mandarin this time just because they arrive in much better condition. At least here they do.

Lots of captive bred regals now circulating. They are tiny but form the pictures they look adorable. They are probably eating and worth every penny.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

It's anyone's guess where the truth lies, but even under the best conditions and with the best of intentions - things sometimes die.

Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from the 90's sitcom 'Friends'. Ross is in the zoo speaking with the manager about marcel and the manager says (paraphrase), there is an old saying, not very popular but very appropriate given the circumstances 'Sometimes monkeys die'.

 

[dMiles]

Even if they’re deformed? Look at CB royal grammas, they look deformed compared to a WC RG. I like CB yes however if they keep breeding deformed fish then the less likely I’ll buy CB. I mean look at Yellow Tangs for example, they come in unhealthy with HLLE. They grow and many of them gain just a white face instead of that solid yellow, if I had a YT with just a white Face ID rather swap it for a WC indonesian YT.

I bought a Coral beauty and Yellow Tang straight from Biota. The CB was tiny(3/4") and the YT was translucent and the size of a quarter. And in 1 1/2 months the CB is twice it's original size and the YT is almost full yellow including the fave. I even talked to Scott at Aquarium Speciality and he ordered some along with some Biota Angels.

 

[Chrisv.]

Of course the debate about quality of livestock doesn't address the concerns about working conditions at ORA. I think threads like this are important because they let managers know that as hobbyists, we care about the way their employees are treated. Even a thread that raises the question has value.

 

[Spare time]

This is purely my opinion however:
I find CB and WC are the same just one is trying to put a much higher price tag on the fish than the other. Yes CB is good but I’d recommend trying to support your LFS over a large already supported company. As said above, the mortality rates for wild fish are the exact same for Captive bred fish. Our CB fish will be as easy or as hard as we want them to be, depending on how willing you are to taking care of these fish. Our WC fish are the exact same, the more you watch them and put effort into making them thrive you will have an easy fish to keep but if you don’t care for it as well as you possibly can it will be a highly difficult fish.

i mean, look at CB mandarins, you may aswell train a WC mandarin to eat frozen. A CB mandarin will most likely turn back onto its wild diet of just pods and artemia (Brine Shrimp).

Where did you see that wild and captive bred fish have the same mortality rates? Most of the time in the wildlife trade, the deaths occur during the capture phase

 

[i cant think]

Where did you see that wild and captive bred fish have the same mortality rates? Most of the time in the wildlife trade, the deaths occur during the capture phase

I didn’t consider the capture phase, just the phase where they’re hitting reef tanks. If you get it straight from the wholesaler yes the CB fish will be much more likely to thrive but if it hits the LFS then it’s got similar mortality rates.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Where did you see that wild and captive bred fish have the same mortality rates? Most of the time in the wildlife trade, the deaths occur during the capture phase

I’ve run three studies since 1985 and WC fish from SE Asia shipped through the normal supply chain had a pretty consistent 4x the mortality rate of CB fish or fish from more sustainable areas.
Jay

 

[fish farmer]

Of course the debate about quality of livestock doesn't address the concerns about working conditions at ORA. I think threads like this are important because they let managers know that as hobbyists, we care about the way their employees are treated. Even a thread that raises the question has value.

I read the reviews...sounds like the employees need a good union.

I've worked in government aquaculture\fisheries for many years, you can usually see with high turnover what places are difficult to work at either through management issues, low pay (fish techs don't really rake it in), long hours/weekends/split shifts, disagreement with culture practices or it just isn't the right fit for the individual.

 

[blaxsun]

I read the reviews...sounds like the employees need a good union.

Because there aren't any right to work coastal states ORA could relocate to, right?

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

Flag on the play. too much politics

 

[albano]

Where did you see that wild and captive bred fish have the same mortality rates? Most of the time in the wildlife trade, the deaths occur during the capture phase

I believe this is one of the photos from a ‘few’ years ago, that caused the Hawaiian gov’t to start looking at collection restrictions

 

[Spare time]

I believe this is one of the photos from a ‘few’ years ago, that caused the Hawaiian gov’t to start looking at collection restrictions

Honestly I'm just wondering who's job it was to line up piles of dead fish as that sounds not so thrilling

 

[BriansBrain]

geez after seeing this and others having difficulty with their corals under leds… I’m second guessing my order I was going to place

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

How is this thread still open with pictures like that?

 

[Chrisv.]

How is this thread still open with pictures like that?

If R2R closed every thread with pictures of dead or nearly dead corals and fish... they would lose half of their content.

IDK about you, but I think it's important for reefers to realize that a huge number of fish that die along the way for every wild caught fish that makes it into their tank. If the extremely high mortality rate bothers you (it bothers me) then it's important to advocate for captive breeding programs, and most importantly, to buy the captive bred fish, even though they may cost a little more.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

I'm aware. I don't think showing pictures of it helps at all. Literally just a picture of dead fish layed out to dry. How horrible. Wait. Let's take pictures and show all the aquarists what a horrible hobby they have.
Take a hike!
D