When can I start adding new fish after an ICH outbreak

[MnFish1]

What predators eat ich?

It goes back to the theory that to do ICH management 'well' you need an established tank - and that a tank full of corals, etc - may very well remove free swimming parasites in general from the tank water. (i.e. just the filter feeders - reduce the population enough - such that it cannot cause severe infection. I posted a couple articles for your interest. Additionally there are other studies showing that in the presence of certain bacteria - CI levels are lower than when those bacteria are not present. After that - nearly every organism on earth has 'predators'.

Here is at least one article mentioning that cleaner shrimp not only remove parasites from the fish but free-swimming as well. https://www.researchgate.net/public...ion_to_treat_parasitic_disease_in_farmed_fish

Here is another article: https://www.researchgate.net/public...caryon_irritans_infection_by_removing_tomonts

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Oh hey, also meant to mention that all in all it really is best to just go fallow though...UV and H2O2 are gonna really take a toll on your microbiome...you can't see it so most people don't care but it really is important.

 

[MnFish1]

Just buy a bottle of regular 3% hydrogen peroxide and the instructions to dose were given by Humblefish...it's something like 1ml per gallon to start and you slowly increase the dose...I don't remember the exact regiment so you'll have to read his instructions but it's really effective at controlling an outbreak and even more effective when you use UV with it because of a chemical reaction it undergoes...just search for hydrogen peroxide in the search bar and the member is Humblefish...lmk if you can't find it and I'll track down a link for you

One thing to be aware of with H2O2 - UV causes rapid degradation of H2O2 - then again H2O2 degrades quickly anyway. UV can also increase degradation of other medications.

Here is a quote from an article - and since the reaction seems to cause H2O2 to be 'degraded' into toxic O2 radicals. it may also speed killing of free-swimming parasites/bacteria.

"It was also observed that the absorption of UVC (UV with wavelength between 200 and 280 nm) is responsible for the dissociation of H2O2 to generate the reactive hydroxyl radicals. Depending on the initial dosages, the H2O2 added to the system can be completely decomposed by UV within 50 to 90 minutes"

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

One thing to be aware of with H2O2 - UV causes rapid degradation of H2O2 - then again H2O2 degrades quickly anyway. UV can also increase degradation of other medications.

Here is a quote from an article - and since the reaction seems to cause H2O2 to be 'degraded' into toxic O2 radicals. it may also speed killing of free-swimming parasites/bacteria.

"It was also observed that the absorption of UVC (UV with wavelength between 200 and 280 nm) is responsible for the dissociation of H2O2 to generate the reactive hydroxyl radicals. Depending on the initial dosages, the H2O2 added to the system can be completely decomposed by UV within 50 to 90 minutes"

I personally wouldn't use peroxide except for in emergencies nowadays or UV for that matter because it kills off so many healthy bacteria

 

[Lavey29]

It goes back to the theory that to do ICH management 'well' you need an established tank - and that a tank full of corals, etc - may very well remove free swimming parasites in general from the tank water. (i.e. just the filter feeders - reduce the population enough - such that it cannot cause severe infection. I posted a couple articles for your interest. Additionally there are other studies showing that in the presence of certain bacteria - CI levels are lower than when those bacteria are not present. After that - nearly every organism on earth has 'predators'.

Here is at least one article mentioning that cleaner shrimp not only remove parasites from the fish but free-swimming as well. https://www.researchgate.net/public...ion_to_treat_parasitic_disease_in_farmed_fish

Here is another article: https://www.researchgate.net/public...caryon_irritans_infection_by_removing_tomonts

Very cool info. Thanks

 

[Lavey29]

It goes back to the theory that to do ICH management 'well' you need an established tank - and that a tank full of corals, etc - may very well remove free swimming parasites in general from the tank water. (i.e. just the filter feeders - reduce the population enough - such that it cannot cause severe infection. I posted a couple articles for your interest. Additionally there are other studies showing that in the presence of certain bacteria - CI levels are lower than when those bacteria are not present. After that - nearly every organism on earth has 'predators'.

Here is at least one article mentioning that cleaner shrimp not only remove parasites from the fish but free-swimming as well. https://www.researchgate.net/public...ion_to_treat_parasitic_disease_in_farmed_fish

Here is another article: https://www.researchgate.net/public...caryon_irritans_infection_by_removing_tomonts

In theory though wouldn't this also apply for other harmful bacteria such as brook or velvet or is this just related to organisms that use parasites to infect?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

In theory though wouldn't this also apply for other harmful bacteria such as brook or velvet or is this just related to organisms that use parasites to infect?

Velvet is a parasite too and there are viruses that kill bacteria called bacteriophages

 

[Lavey29]

Velvet is a parasite too and there are viruses that kill bacteria called bacteriophages

Good to know I thought it was microscopic bacteria in the water

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Good to know I thought it was microscopic bacteria in the water

Bacteria compete too but viruses also infect bacteria...it's actually pretty interesting

 

[Lavey29]

Interesting info in this thread. I notice that my cleaner wrasse spends a lot of time cleaning his tankmates gill area. I'm guessing he's getting tiny parasites or flaky scales off of them. I have no health issues in the tank that I'm aware of. The cleaner shrimp generally tries to clean any part of the fish he can reach if the fish allows it.

 

[MnFish1]

In theory though wouldn't this also apply for other harmful bacteria such as brook or velvet or is this just related to organisms that use parasites to infect?

According to many using this method - their tanks are protected against all parasites - including the ones you mentioned.

 

[Tcook]

What is the resistance to a proper QT setup? I would guess you are in this hobby for the long run. A used QT setup can be had for little money. Save yourself many headaches.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

What is the resistance to a proper QT setup? I would guess you are in this hobby for the long run. A used QT setup can be had for little money. Save yourself many headaches.

I think with a majority of people it's just the lack of patience more than anything which is nothing to be ashamed to admit...I used to never QT but finally learned my lesson...ich and velvet are such pains to get rid of not to mention the other benefits of at least a short quarantine period

 

[MnFish1]

What is the resistance to a proper QT setup? I would guess you are in this hobby for the long run. A used QT setup can be had for little money. Save yourself many headaches.

I'm not going to get into the 'debate' - but try to answer your question. Most people based on numerous polls do not QT - and at least per their report - have not had problems. Many people that have QT'd - have lost fish during QT. Thus - many people (whether right or wrong) - feel there are positives and negatives mortality-wise with or without QT - and do not prioritize it.

Though I would tend to agree with you - QT is a rather 'simple process'. many people have also posted - I QT'd - and now my fish have Ich, or velvet or whatever. So - neither 'method' is completely fool-proof or 100% effective. My opinion is to 'follow a more scientific approach' - which is - if multiple zoos and public aquaria follow QT protocols, its probably a good idea.

 

[Lavey29]

What is the resistance to a proper QT setup? I would guess you are in this hobby for the long run. A used QT setup can be had for little money. Save yourself many headaches.

It's hard enough to get one tank past the wife now try and add a couple 10g QT tanks? That would make for a battle royal at my pad on Saturday night.

 

[Wtyson254]

What is the resistance to a proper QT setup? I would guess you are in this hobby for the long run. A used QT setup can be had for little money. Save yourself many headaches.

Some people are space limited and cannot house all of their display fish in their QT tank at one time. I have a 110g display and a 20g QT.

for the OP, https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/peroxide-h2o2-dosing-for-parasites-in-reef-tank.725/

I have been using this method for some time and it seems to be working.

I would personally wait at least three months (assuming no new outbreaks or unexplained fish death) before adding anything (including coral/inverts). At that point I would send an Aquabiomics test to see if there is any activily reproducing ich/velvet in your tank. If the test is negative you could then in theory add new fish (after thorough QT of the fish)

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'm not going to get into the 'debate' - but try to answer your question. Most people based on numerous polls do not QT - and at least per their report - have not had problems. Many people that have QT'd - have lost fish during QT. Thus - many people (whether right or wrong) - feel there are positives and negatives mortality-wise with or without QT - and do not prioritize it.

Though I would tend to agree with you - QT is a rather 'simple process'. many people have also posted - I QT'd - and now my fish have Ich, or velvet or whatever. So - neither 'method' is completely fool-proof or 100% effective. My opinion is to 'follow a more scientific approach' - which is - if multiple zoos and public aquaria follow QT protocols, its probably a good idea.

Personally I QT without medication and for a shorter period of time than traditional QT protocol...I don't like to use chemicals because they can be hard on the fish and chemicals like copper kill the gut microbiota which greatly weakens the immune system...I like to make sure the fish is eating what I plan to feed it and observe behavior for illness and other things like that...a lot of people would disagree I'm sure but the chemicals that greatly alter the fish's microbiota really make it weaker which is fine if your tank is completely sterile from pathogens and parasites but if just one does get in, a healthy immune system is crucial to surviving long enough to be treated or fight it off themselves. That's my view

 

[Tcook]

It's hard enough to get one tank past the wife now try and add a couple 10g QT tanks? That would make for a battle royal at my pad on Saturday night.

I get that

 

[Tcook]

I'm not going to get into the 'debate' - but try to answer your question. Most people based on numerous polls do not QT - and at least per their report - have not had problems. Many people that have QT'd - have lost fish during QT. Thus - many people (whether right or wrong) - feel there are positives and negatives mortality-wise with or without QT - and do not prioritize it.

Though I would tend to agree with you - QT is a rather 'simple process'. many people have also posted - I QT'd - and now my fish have Ich, or velvet or whatever. So - neither 'method' is completely fool-proof or 100% effective. My opinion is to 'follow a more scientific approach' - which is - if multiple zoos and public aquaria follow QT protocols, its probably a good idea.

Agree. I typically buy preconditioned or quarantined fish and actually just observe them in the QT tank for 4-6 weeks. I treat with prazipro but haven't had to use copper for years. I, personally, can't/won't take the risk of going straight to the DT with a new fish.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Fish I can understand a standard quarantine protocol but quarantining inverts, corals, even live rock I've heard just seems really unnecessary to me...I know the idea is that there could be parasites on the inverts or rock but you can't avoid every little risk out there...