When you would NOT buy or use bottled bacteria

[MnFish1]

Didn’t you list several university studies in the other thread that backed up unassisted cycling

No - I think you picked out some verbiage that suggested that - but my point was actually - that conventional wisdom about nitrification and ammonia consumption was probably 'voodoo'. This was a scientific article in general about nitrifying bacteria - as compared to nitrifying bacteria in a reef tank. -with no food - for 60 days.

 

[MnFish1]

Let e crystallize my thoughts on some of this - mainly how one experiment does not prove much.

1. Every good experiment has replicates - 2 or 3 or 4 tanks - and is repeatable. So - I do not think (despite the effort - which is awesome) - that we can say 'point blank' that a tank cycles in 60 days with no food.
2. I think people that say its 'unethical' to cycle with fish are also 'out of touch' with science. The reality is, that adding a damsel to a 100 gallon aquarium - and feeding it - while gradually adding more fish slowly - is not unethical - because that damsel will not produce enough ammonia to cause a problem. BUT -
3. My perspective is - that after that damsel has lived in the tank for a month - you could not add 10 tangs - and expect them to do well. It doesnt make scientific sense.

By the way - again we're talking about a word 'cycled' - there is no definition (standardized) that I'm aware of. Ive heard all of the definitions from 1950 - I tend to agree much more with @brandon429's definition - but - IMHO -the only difference is 'cycled to what degree'. A "cycled tank" by any definition could not process the ammonia from a large dead fish in the tank.

 

[N.Sreefer]

This is an interesting read relating to the content of this thread. Ecological succession of different microbial species/communities is something I never see discussed in cycling threads. As tanks mature regardless of surface area and how the tank was cycled different bacteria colonize and experience rise and fall cycles leading to different ammonia consumption rates.

Microbial Community Succession and Nutrient Cycling Responses following Perturbations of Experimental Saltwater Aquaria - PMC

Saltwater aquaria are living systems that support a complex biological community of fish, invertebrates, and microbes. The health and maintenance of saltwater tanks are pressing concerns for home hobbyists, zoos, and professionals in the aquarium ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[brandon429]

Right off the bat thats a nice link for us, it’s aquarium based and I like how they use benthic growth ID / coralline to signify something pre cycled for bacteria. Reading on

 

[brandon429]

heretoforward all rip cleans shall be referred to as acute extraction perturbations.

 

[N.Sreefer]

For anyone who doesn't want to click the link and read through the whole study

Pic 1.Area chart of alpha taxonomy for water and sediment samples from coral pond 1 (CP1) and coral pond 2 (CP2) experimental aquaria, plotted across time. Results are from 97% open-reference OTU picking in QIIME (singletons discarded). Taxonomic assignments for 16S rRNA gene OTUs are summarized and plotted at the phylum level, with relative abundances displayed for the eight most abundant microbial phyla.

Pic 2. Changes in aquarium microbial community richness over time, including responses to introduced perturbations. Results from 97% open-reference OTU picking in QIIME are summarized according to genus-level taxonomy (L5, level 5 from the Greengenes taxonomic ranks). Graphs illustrate the number of bacterial/archaeal genera assigned to OTU sequences recovered across time for two independent saltwater aquaria (coral pond 1 [CP1] and coral pond 2 [CP2] water and sediment samples). Vertical lines indicate perturbations introduced during the sampling time series. On each line graph, solid colors represent overall community richness calculated from all OTUs with a minimum cluster size >2 (excluding singletons). Dashed lines represent community richness inferred for samples rarefied to 5,000 sequences per sample (with the samples with levels below that threshold discarded). Yellow stars on the far left display the genus-level OTU richness for laboratory seawater and commercial sand used for initial aquarium setup (sampled on day 0).

Pic3.Aquarium perturbations spur large shifts in microbial beta-diversity patterns over time. Data represent results of principal-coordinate-analysis (PCoA) ordination based on unweighted UniFrac distances of microbial community 16S rRNA gene profiles, displaying sediment samples from the coral pond 1 (CP1) aquarium, with the gradient color scale illustrating sampling across time. Dotted lines on the left color legend indicate the three major perturbation events (LR = live rock addition, WC = walls cleaned, WR = water replacement). Following tank setup, microbial community assemblages showed closest similarity to those seen with the commercial sand sample used to set up the aquarium on day 0. Rocks and sediment were transferred from an established aquarium on day 12, at which point the microbial assemblage showed rapid change over the course of a few hours (CP.12.sed, collected in the morning before aquarium perturbation; CP12.sed.PM, collected in the afternoon immediately following perturbation). A second major shift in community changes occurred after the addition of live rocks (CP.45.sed onward; orange and red dots). Dotted gray arrows indicate general trends in community shifts over time. Data represent results from 97% open-reference OTU picking in QIIME (singletons discarded), rarefied at 1,000 sequences per sample.

**Rights to all images and excerpts are intellectual property of the respective study authors. Shared for the free share of information on the husbandry of coral by aquarists. If you are the intellectual owner and do not want this information shared I will remove posthaste.

 

[MnFish1]

For anyone who doesn't want to click the link and read through the whole study

Pic 1.Area chart of alpha taxonomy for water and sediment samples from coral pond 1 (CP1) and coral pond 2 (CP2) experimental aquaria, plotted across time. Results are from 97% open-reference OTU picking in QIIME (singletons discarded). Taxonomic assignments for 16S rRNA gene OTUs are summarized and plotted at the phylum level, with relative abundances displayed for the eight most abundant microbial phyla.

Pic 2. Changes in aquarium microbial community richness over time, including responses to introduced perturbations. Results from 97% open-reference OTU picking in QIIME are summarized according to genus-level taxonomy (L5, level 5 from the Greengenes taxonomic ranks). Graphs illustrate the number of bacterial/archaeal genera assigned to OTU sequences recovered across time for two independent saltwater aquaria (coral pond 1 [CP1] and coral pond 2 [CP2] water and sediment samples). Vertical lines indicate perturbations introduced during the sampling time series. On each line graph, solid colors represent overall community richness calculated from all OTUs with a minimum cluster size >2 (excluding singletons). Dashed lines represent community richness inferred for samples rarefied to 5,000 sequences per sample (with the samples with levels below that threshold discarded). Yellow stars on the far left display the genus-level OTU richness for laboratory seawater and commercial sand used for initial aquarium setup (sampled on day 0).

Pic3.Aquarium perturbations spur large shifts in microbial beta-diversity patterns over time. Data represent results of principal-coordinate-analysis (PCoA) ordination based on unweighted UniFrac distances of microbial community 16S rRNA gene profiles, displaying sediment samples from the coral pond 1 (CP1) aquarium, with the gradient color scale illustrating sampling across time. Dotted lines on the left color legend indicate the three major perturbation events (LR = live rock addition, WC = walls cleaned, WR = water replacement). Following tank setup, microbial community assemblages showed closest similarity to those seen with the commercial sand sample used to set up the aquarium on day 0. Rocks and sediment were transferred from an established aquarium on day 12, at which point the microbial assemblage showed rapid change over the course of a few hours (CP.12.sed, collected in the morning before aquarium perturbation; CP12.sed.PM, collected in the afternoon immediately following perturbation). A second major shift in community changes occurred after the addition of live rocks (CP.45.sed onward; orange and red dots). Dotted gray arrows indicate general trends in community shifts over time. Data represent results from 97% open-reference OTU picking in QIIME (singletons discarded), rarefied at 1,000 sequences per sample.

**Rights to all images and excerpts are intellectual property of the respective study authors. Shared for the free share of information on the husbandry of coral by aquarists. If you are the intellectual owner and do not want this information shared I will remove posthaste.

can you give your interpretations?

 

[N.Sreefer]

can you give your interpretations?

Certainly! So the first surprising thing to me is there's very little drop in microbe diversity and concentration after adding a protein skimmer in a young tank. Most of the bacteria that died during the addition are human added microbes (no use to the system and will die anyway). The number of microbe genre actually went up right after the protein skimmer was added from approx 200 to 300 genre. Looking at the information presented I am of the opinion that a protein skimmer is not detrimental to even free living bacterial populations (bacterioplankton) and actually increases species diversity. Another interesting part of the graphs is the spike following every disturbance even scraping your glass changes the dominant species of microbe and increases diversity. Many of the species that dominate the systems in the study are not found in any bottled bac that list their species (that I personally have seen) so the main effect of bottled back may be aiding in competition to shift the dominant microbe in a tank to a more beneficial species (even if its not the one found in the bottle). Another thought that arises reading this study is a "rip clean" of a tank would cause a fall then spike in microbe genre (spike often passes original number of genre) and may lead to a new species becoming dominant (for example a nitrifying species of bacteria replacing dominant cyano).

"Once the experimental aquaria were conditioned on day 12, the levels of toxic nitrogen compounds were not observed to rise at any subsequent point in the study, despite the continuation of routine perturbations and some observed fluctuations in the relative abundances of nitrogen-transforming taxa"

Big changes to the microbe community did not effect the aquarium params in any serious manner even with large water changes (90%) and constant perturbation (disturbances). Seed the tank with some biomedia (live rock detritus sand sponge etc) from another tank and after 12 days even without feeding your tank will be "cycled". After that even if you try pretty hard it'll be difficult to keep free ammonia in a system. I'm sure I missed a few things I'm going to reread it and jot down any observations.

*My interpretations of the study is just opinion.*

 

[brandon429]

We wouldnt buy bottled bacteria or add it for sandbed swaps due to rule 1

EMERGENCY - Substrate change

I went for the caribsea pink Fiji alive, was this a mistake? I know some places you can pick the grain size of that sand but it typically comes in a .5-1m which is a little small for my liking. I prefer the Reef grade by Carib sea. Perfect size grain for my universal needs, does not blow around...

www.reef2reef.com

recently completed job by Tim, well done

rocks carry all the bacteria needed when moved from a pet store to a new tank at home, or when simply just changing out a sandbed all at once.

 

[brandon429]

#13 or #14 I forget where we are


-restarting a reef tank that was crashed by storms and power loss.

example work

A week without power - Recoverable?

So, tank went without power for a week following hurricane Ida. There was no flow(obviously) and temps hit 85-86 during the day. I came back to the city to rescue my 2 clowns who are currently living in a 5 gallon bucket with a bubbler. Basically my question is: what are my options from here...

www.reef2reef.com

Your cycling bacteria are blanketed in loss sloughs and waste plugging up the pores in your rocks, simply rip clean the reef and rule #1 applies here, these rocks aren't new they've been underwater for a while. No bottle bac is used when restoring Ida-ravaged reefs, in fact its contraindicated. Your reef just ran without 02 ideals, don't dose mixed aerobic heterotrophs who have no attachment room and consume o2 in competition with your existing filter bac, that a rip clean would uncover.

rip clean =
take your system apart hold fish and rocks separate, inverts can go in with fish in buckets

take all rock out and power swish it in old tank water, jet off the waste. use a pressure toy water gun loaded with saltwater confiscated from an eight year old, be creative. jet out the waste set aside.


take sandbed and rinse it two to four hours in tap water in the bath tub don't pour large grain sand down the drain, rinse silt only it'll be ok. rinse until clean, in tap

final rinse RO

reset back up the entire system, its cloudless rocks added on top of cloudless sand and all your bac on the rocks are alive and ready, you specifically would trust them and not buy bottled bac just in case. There isn't a just in case that's false sales. Nitrifying Bottle bac are used to upcycle dry reefs, and then not used again.



#take note on how often the hobby tries to sell us, peers try to sell us, on bottle bac considering rule #1

most entries here are violation of rule #1.

 

[brandon429]

additionally, you would not dose mb7 or any other digesting bac for this rebuild job/storm damage


they too are oxygen sapping heterotrophs and adding mass won't remove mass blanketing your rocks, it'll remove dollars from your pocket. only a rip clean jets out the pores and establishes a tank with zero waste stores. Nothing beats a rip clean for storm damage tank restoration, its directly implicated to the exclusion of all other methods.

If someone wants to use biodigest or mb7 or the brightwell scrubbers to fight dinos in a non-crashed tank, go right ahead. Just not for mass export need jobs. The filter bacteria stuck to crevices in a stilled, power-outage crashed reef are still alive and functional, debride them fiercely. what remains behind are the original bioslicks now able to directly interact with new wastewater, not a chemical soup of dosing agents taking up the oxygen. Do not use dosers on storm dagamed tank rehab jobs, the physical exchange of materials is what you need.

 

[brandon429]

Coxey's job here was really helpful for aquarists in a few different scenarios.

not only is it a long distance surgical tank move, with unexpected twists and turns navigated, its a live-time study of times we wouldn't and times we would use bottle bac, in the same move job!

we wouldn't use bottle bac in the new display setup, that's using existing live rock and falls back on rule #1 first page here.


but, bottle bac was used in the transport fish buckets as ammonia insurance, rule #1 rocks were missing from the transported buckets and we chose something known to actually offset free ammonia vs prime where thread in the chem forum show it not as effective as bottle bac for an ammonia-specific job.

Jon Malkerson has a seneye testing thread avail where he doses liquid ammonia into a tank and charts the rise, it stays until he adds Dr. Tim's bac and then the nh3 drops shortly after. that specific logged action is why I recommended bottle bac for the transport buckets lacking active surface area within this relocation job.

we get to chart live time before the final outcome if things are going to live or die based on instances we would and wouldn't use bottle bacteria in aquarium jobs.

Moving a used 40 gallon breed with sump and livestock?

Hi, I found a used 40 gallon breeder setup with stand thats only 7 months old for a good price. But it would be my first tank and I'm concerned about moving it and keeping the livestock alive. There are 4 fish, two small corals, and two shrimp and a Halloween crab. Any tips on moving it an the...

www.reef2reef.com

what you read above is exactly what 400 instant ready reefs at MACNA or any other reef convention has done, above is the art of the skip cycle tank transfer.

as a credit to bottle bac sellers, we found a specific time that using bottle bac on a cycled reef tank is indicated-during transport intervals where holding time extends such that free ammonia buildup in non pressurized transfer systems is expected, and activated surface area is lacking or not present.



#15, it took fifteen examples to find a time we would use cycling bottle bac after the initial cycle:
when transporting fish in buckets of water, if you can't have a bubbling filter setup bottle bacteria at least directly uptake free ammonia from the water column found in more than one study using seneye.

 

[brandon429]

#16. You would NOT buy or dose bottled bacteria when your red sea ammonia kit or api ammonia kit mysteriously shows elevated ammonia one day, for no reason whatsoever. You are feeling the pangs of the nondigital ammonia misread, the #1 impulse mechanism bottle bac sellers want you to have as a direct reaction to not owning a seneye.


log back out of the bottle bac purchase before you click buy/send and read this thread start to finish plus each example.

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

you can now see that not owning a seneye was your issue, or not trusting updated cycling science in place of seneye if you didn't want to spend $180 to measure the single most predictable parameter in all of reefing

what nh3 does in a given setup applies to every single reef above, and only about 10% believe me still lol though their tanks were and are still fine. I'll never pay to own a seneye, but will continue predicting which displays run in the thousandths ppm nh3 and await counter measure feedback.

in the meantime, click the name badge of any entrant example there, select find all posts and track out how their tank fared, link what you find here, we can discuss those specifics if we need to. Find a work job, track it out, post here-> we compare results. pretty simple.


#17, and it should have been rule #2
In response to any nitrite test at any phase in reefing you would not buy or add bottled bacteria

You shouldn't own or run a nitrite test in reefing, to review this claim search out any thing on google labeled "updated cycling science" and look at the # of nitrite-positive reefs studied. hundreds, and you can message them all here for updates. also read this post before making counter assumptions about nitrite in reefing and reef cycling:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

"In reality, nitrite probably is not toxic enough to warrant measuring in most marine systems"


testing nitrite in reefing usually leads to buying bottle bac when nitrite is detected, it’s best to omit the measure altogether.



#18, we would NOT use bottle bac when tanks break and we have to emergency xfer to a new tank

EMERGENCY - Help! 40 breeder leaked all over floor

I woke up at 2am to use the bathroom and heard the sound of water splashing. I went to look in my living room in horror and disbelief. Then I saw it, half the water gone! I think the stupid hob protein skimmer overflowed, because I dont see any cracks in the tank. But I had to drain the whole...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[wonroc]

ips sells the sludge, fa real bra

 

[brandon429]

I would add their bag of pods and various refugium micro creatures for sure. Any of these rebuild jobs we do, adding live pods after the reassembly is ideal


You’re referring to indo pacific sea farms right?



another no bottle bac tank disassembly surgery, no bottle bac from Jedi. ** his rocks were rinsed in tap water, not saltwater, this is an especially good test match for our no bottle bac examples thread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/32g-rework.861875/#post-9403203

Light tap water rinsing doesn’t undo cycles from rocks, proof coming. Tap water does offend pods, admitted he he

 

[wonroc]

i just started a new 10g. one 7 lb piece of old live rock. its like day 8. i dosed seachem stability a cap a day. when do think i can stop. i dont have seneye and im not fond of test kits. i have a cheap seachem ammonia alert thing that you stick on the glass. its showing a little ammonia . should i keep with the daily stability or break down for some test kits. theres fish in the tank

 

[brandon429]

On the 7 lb piece of live rock was that truly wet/ live just moved over into the new tank or was it dry/dead rock when you moved it into the new tank

post a pic of your tank so we can see working ratios of surface area etc

 

[wonroc]

the rock is from lfs absolutely fish in nj. a premier salt reef store here. i could easily see it was one of the older pieces compared to ones in the tank on top of the pile.pic coming below in a sec.

 

[wonroc]

Yes. Dont laugh its a spongbob tank for my sons. Hahahah

 

[brandon429]

I’ve never seen any reef where the live rock component was too small to carry the intended bioload, yours is the same


very nice skip cycle rock you sourced!

your rock when added had every square inch covered in cycling bac, the additive isn’t helping as there’s no where for extra bacteria to attach. The cells float around, compete for oxygen and are sinked or sloughed off just mixing in the water. Stop dosing the bac and do a 50% water change matching temp and salinity of the current water



that is a perfect example for our thread, the rock is able without extra assistance. Regarding the ammonia badge, leave it in place as we do the cleaning water change and cease dosing bac, let’s see what it reads in a week, what it reads as we make changes won’t matter let’s see where it stabilizes at after it’s all tuned up.

we did not need the extra bacteria at any time here, the rock was true skip cycle rock. It’s not tucked in a sump, slow to receive waste water it’s dead center mass in flow right where the waste is produced. The rock will carry the complete fish load for the tank as long as circulation is running.