Where do they come from?

[Nasabeau]

so, watching my tank this evening, unwinding after studying, I had a thought. I was watching some cyanobacteria waving back and forth peacefully and thought to myself: how did they get there. I mean, the simple answer is my phosphate is .5 ppm, and I need to do a water change and suck them out while I do it (its still barely over a month old tank, so really just part of the ugly phase), but that doesn't tell the whole story. Algea and Bacteria both show up because they reproduce rapidly, but that begs the question "How did the original organism get in the tank?". when my tank started there were no algeas and no bacteria outside Dr. Tim's One and only. So where did these guys come from? live rock? live sand? came in on the fish? they are constantly in the air and germinate when they find a marine tank? all of the above? none of the above? such simple things, and tbh I think the little strands swaying look kind of neat (side note, any reason they HAVE to come out? like, can I just deal with the phosphate and leave them alone, I think they are cool) but I am now very curious about how they got in there.

 

[robbyg]

That’s an interesting question. In most tanks it could be a number of factors like live rock all the way down to fish poo. The weird part is that even if you use sterile rock and clean rodi mix and put nothing living in the tank it will show up. Algae, Dinos etc.
Sounds like the making of a myth buster episode.

 

[Nasabeau]

That’s an interesting question. In most tanks it could be a number of factors like live rock all the way down to fish poo. The weird part is that even if you use sterile rock and clean rodi mix and put nothing living in the tank it will show up. Algae, Dinos etc.
Sounds like the making of a myth buster episode.

Interesting! I know this isn't really an important question (for my tank I assumed they came in on the live rock or in the live sand or on the fish) but since thinking about it I figured I'd open a discussion about it. I suppose I could devise an experiment where I put RODI mix into a sealed air tight container with a dry rock and see if it grows anything XD.

 

[vetteguy53081]

It’s a bacteria formed by phosphate and nitrate .
Cyanobacteria is a bacteria that is always present in our tanks. When it grows in enough numbers so it becomes visible and more physical it is because it has a food source allowing it to grow. That food source is primarily high levels of dissolved organic carbon compounds (DOCs). Cyano blooms or breakouts can be caused by just one ... or a combination of the following factors:
- Overfeeding
- Poor skimming - dirty or plain old ineffective units
- Not using an RO water filter or you have an ineffective RO water filter, i.e., any brand not using a Filmtec membrane
- RO membrane not fully "seated" into it's housing allowing the water to bypass the membrane
- Infrequent water changes
- Improper filtration, i.e., sand bed not deep enough &/or too little rock
- Nutrients dumped from die-off on rocks during a cycle

 

[Nasabeau]

It’s a bacteria formed by phosphate and nitrate .
Cyanobacteria is a bacteria that is always present in our tanks. When it grows in enough numbers so it becomes visible and more physical it is because it has a food source allowing it to grow. That food source is primarily high levels of dissolved organic carbon compounds (DOCs). Cyano blooms or breakouts can be caused by just one ... or a combination of the following factors:
- Overfeeding
- Poor skimming - dirty or plain old ineffective units
- Not using an RO water filter or you have an ineffective RO water filter, i.e., any brand not using a Filmtec membrane
- RO membrane not fully "seated" into it's housing allowing the water to bypass the membrane
- Infrequent water changes
- Improper filtration, i.e., sand bed not deep enough &/or too little rock
- Nutrients dumped from die-off on rocks during a cycle

I'm aware of why they are visible to us when things get out of whack, this was more a question of "how do they get into the tank in the first place?" The bacteria aren't just spontaneously generating there, I was just curious how the initial one got in the tank. if there wasn't a a single cyanobacterium in the tank, no amount of phosphate or nitrate would cause a bloom. I suppose this was a more philosophical question than looking for advice. basically my premise is "nothing was ALWAYS present". I'm sure when the glass panels were cut for my tank they were free of bacteria. they were probably free of bacteria when the tank was assembled and at the store (at least free of halotolerant or halophilic cyanobacteria), so the question was more about "at what point do they get into the tank, given that they always do"

 

[vetteguy53081]

I'm aware of why they are visible to us when things get out of whack, this was more a question of "how do they get into the tank in the first place?" The bacteria aren't just spontaneously generating there, I was just curious how the initial one got in the tank. if there wasn't a a single cyanobacterium in the tank, no amount of phosphate or nitrate would cause a bloom. I suppose this was a more philosophical question than looking for advice. basically my premise is "nothing was ALWAYS present". I'm sure when the glass panels were cut for my tank they were free of bacteria. they were probably free of bacteria when the tank was assembled and at the store (at least free of halotolerant or halophilic cyanobacteria), so the question was more about "at what point do they get into the tank, given that they always do"

It’s always present. Just not visible to naked eye until they create their own building blocks from bacteria which is always present

 

[Nasabeau]

It’s always present. Just not visible to naked eye until they create their own building blocks from bacteria which is always present

What I am saying is that the cyanobacteria are not always present. They came from somewhere. unless your assertion is that cyanobacteria live on every surface in the world and are just waiting for food to grow? seems unlikely since they can't live outside of water... The question is about how the first one enters your tank, its more philosophical than anything. if you're using RODI water, there's no bacteria. cyanobacteria require water to live, so its safe to assume a dry aquarium doesn't have any either. same with dry sand, and dry rock, so in theory if you set all of that up as I just described, there would in theory be no cyanobacteria in the tank... the "they're always present" line doesn't work when asking where a living thing came from. Obviously they do show up in every tank, but the question was about what point in the process they were introduced. like I said, more philosophical musing than actual relevant information. I'm not looking for a "don't do this step in aquarium setup to never have cyano" it was a idle curiosity that "They're just there" doesn't really answer.

 

[Nasabeau]

like, I am acutely aware of where my Cyano came from, I got the glorious advice when I started my tank than conditioned tap water would be fine, and my phosphates and nitrates are high because of it, and I have live rock and sand in the tank as well as fish and inverts, any one of which could have introduced bacteria, but it was more a question of "in most cases what brings them into the tank" not a "why do I have a cyano outbreak"

 

[Textech]

My first thought would be tap water. I know there is bacteria in tap water I'm just not sure if the freshwater version of cyno can live in saltwater. "Cyanobacteria, also called blue-green algae, are microscopic organisms found naturally in all types of water." (Cdc.gov). Also not sure if RODI removes ALL bacteria. I've read RODI is effective at removing bacteria, but effective doesn't mean full proof. And I doubt bacteria shows up on a TDF meter. My guess is these little boogers are living in pretty much all water and come through your water source.

 

[Nasabeau]

My first thought would be tap water. I know there is bacteria in tap water I'm just not sure if the freshwater version of cyno can live in saltwater. "Cyanobacteria, also called blue-green algae, are microscopic organisms found naturally in all types of water." (Cdc.gov). Also not sure if RODI removes ALL bacteria. I've read RODI is effective at removing bacteria, but effective doesn't mean full proof. And I doubt bacteria shows up on a TDF meter. My guess is these little boogers are living in pretty much all water and come through your water source.

True RO will have no bacteria, this much I am sure of from my time working in a chemical lab (Think about it, RO units are removing things on an atomic scale, based mostly on size, bacteria are so vastly larger than that its not even comparable. I mean, really Bacteria are so large they actually have their own RO membranes (thats actually where the technology was derived from, the cell membrane)) that said its a fair bet that a well used membrane might let some through. it would be interesting to know if freshwater cyano could survive in marine water... interesting thought.

Edit: that is screwing with my head, you are right, I have absolutely no idea if a TDS meter would show bacteria... time for some experimenting XD. I am going to add some bacteria to some 0 TDS RO and see if it changes, stay tuned XD

 

[ScottJ]

I was actually just wondering where the Pineapple Sponges that are in my tank suddenly came from. It's 9 months old, started with dry rock, and hasn't had any new additions in about 2 months. All of a sudden, like last week, 2 Pineapple Sponges show up on the underside of a ledge. Where are their parents? Maybe there are others that have been hiding.

And what about all the other critters that show up. Corals are dipped, livestock is quarantined, and things still get through, I understand that. But there seems to be a huge biodiversity that develops despite your best efforts to keep things out. It's pretty interesting to ponder!

 

[brandon429]

Sourcing an easy locus for the mythbusters option:

take a clear glass filled with .023 saltwater and put it in the windowsill where it gets strongest light all day. Add in crushed powdered planted tank fertilizer, phosphate on the ingredients list. Not seachem vitamin plugs for micro nutrients, buy the little round disks of phosphate and nitrate fertilizer you press into planted substrate to hyper grow easy plants and then cause an algae outbreak. Add in a tiny grinded up flake of fish food per Dr Reefs trick


keep the cup topped off accurately. You can saran wrap it to prevent evap, but vent it every few days. Open top but topped off is fastest way to new growth

report back in two mos with a pic

use cheap Amazon scope to post some micro pics, cool article in 2021 potentially is ubiquitous casting of life vs obligate hitchhikers, selected for reef tank water, all from a common drinking glass.

what can’t be in the cup on month two:
-any species of invasive macroalgae
-invasive dinoflagellates
-valonia bubble algae

what can be in the cup: gha, micro algae dots, cyano, spirulina, bacterial films fungal films, suspended organisms and bac mats that cloud water, and we never touched reef materials in the build

 

[brandon429]

We have to occasionally clean out drinking water RO holding containers or they smell and become non potable because: cliffhanger

 

[Billdogg]

The easy answer is that things come in as tiny spores/cysts/eggs when you add any living organism to your tank. All those organisms have living on/in them thousands (more, really) of various who knows what that, once released into your system have a whole new world to colonize, so they do what they've done for billions of years - go forth and propagate!

The only way to prevent things from doing that would be to start with a totally sterile system, introduce NO LIVING ANYTHING to your tank and keep it 100% sealed from all outside influences forever.

That, however, would be pretty boring to look at, so as all of us do, we play God, and add life. And then ponder where it all came from and marvel at it's complexity.

 

[ScottJ]

And then ponder where it all came from and marvel at it's complexity.

It truly is a marvel. Life finds a way.

 

[Brandon3152134]

"Im simply saying, Life uh finds a way"-Ian malcolm

 

[Spieg]

And while we're pondering... where does the mildew in my shower come from?

;Smuggrin

 

[Billdogg]

And while we're pondering... where does the mildew in my shower come from?

;Smuggrin

Do you really want us to start commenting on your personal hygiene???

 

[vetteguy53081]

Pineapple sponge derives from silicates in RO units mainly. High organics and high level of phyto seem to suoort them. They are very short lived as silicates dissipate fairly quick