Which Automatic Tester is Right for Me? (Trident vs ReefBot)

[mikedb]

Background:

My Red Sea 625 Peninsula is about 8 months old, and finally seems to be running smoothly with a variety of livestock including SPS, LPS, and soft corals. With a 2-month old son and a busy work schedule, I am trying to automate critical functions wherever possible so that the health of the reef doesn't suffer during periods where I can't spend quite as much time with maintenance.

SInce the tank was originally established, my nutrient levels have been a continuing issue. From the beginning, my Nitrate levels were undetectable (NYOS), and my phosphate levels we reasonable (if not a little high) at around 0.1ppm (Hanna Phosphate ULR). I battled hair algae, then diatoms, then hair algae again, and assumed that they were absorbing all of the nitrate, hence the low reading (and inability to grow chaeto in my fuge). Not to mention several of my corals seemed to be losing color and not opening.

A few weeks ago, based on some of my readings on this forum, I decided to try an experiment- dosing Nitrate (Brightwell NeoNitro). The results were incredible: over the course of a few days, my SPS corals regained beautiful coloration, and the hair algae quickly began dying back. My goniopora started extending more than I had ever seen before. My tank is finally running well.

So far, I have dosed almost 500ml of NeoNitro, and Nitrate levels are stabilized at around 1-2 ppm without further dosing. However, predictably, my phosphate levels are now too low (0.00-0.02ppm). I have started feeding somewhat excessively in an attempt to increase both parameters, while continuing to monitor the situation by testing every day. I am hoping to get both parameters to a more ideal range, but it seems to be a somewhat fragile balance. I spect carbon will be the limiting parameter in the not-too-distant future.

My Question:

Much of the focus on aquarium chemistry seems to be on Alk, Calcium, and Magnesium. In consideration of that, I had joined a waiting list at my LFS for an Apex Trident. But frankly, those parameters have been very simple to control thus far- I test Alkalinity weekly, and simply adjust the dosage of AquaForest 3-part (using two Neptune DOS units) to keep it at 8.5dKH (+/- 0.3 dKH). Ca and Mg have always remained in the ideal range when using this method (dosing equal amounts of 3-part, as instructed).

On the other hand, my Nitrate and Phosphate have been a challenge to control and keep in ideal ranges. I'm not sure if these will 'stabilize', especially with the inevitable changes in tank stocking and loads over the years.

This all has me reconsidering the Trident decision, since it seems that it won't really reduce my testing workload all that much. The ReefBot seems to be the only solution on the market right now to monitor PO4 and NO3, but buying the 'early adopter' edition of anything (particularly a $1k+ expenditure) has me nervous. Online feedback seems somewhat mixed, with some reporting difficulties in setup and calibration. While I am a mechanical engineer who doesn't mind a little effort with setup, I also don't want to spend more time maintaining the ReefBot than I save performing tests.

What would you do in my situation? Is my use case ideal for the Reefbot? Or might my tank stabilize and no longer require NO3 and PO4 testing on a regular basis (in which case, I would go with the Trident)?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Juniorh2r]

Tough one reefbot seems a little complicated but it will test multiple tests apex trident is good too but I think if your gonna invest in something till your tank really matures 5yrs from now I would go with the reefbot my opinion. Do you own a apex system? And I'm in the same limbo I'm not sure either I own an apex system but both the trident and reefbot are fairly new so I'm just being patient to see people's reviews instead of just rushing.

 

[smartwater101]

Mastertronic will be out later this year and MACNA is this weekend, so expect uptades on that, GHLs ION detector, and several other companies. (I wouldn't touch the Trident with a 10 foot pole. Neptune Systems continues to prove what shoddy build quality their products are.)

Anyway, I keep having to resist the urge to buy a reefbot because there are a lot of options being released this year. Hopefully MACNA will help us narrow it down.

 

[SneakyTortuga]

I have to agree with above. I would wait a week for macna to pass. See if they release any new products that may catch your eye

 

[User1]

There will always be something new and different as the leaders do what they do - lead by innovation. If you have an apex ecosystem then put yourself on a list for a trident. Do some reading about the others, then make a list of pro and cons. Now with a list you can sort of paint a picture what may or may not work with the various devices.

You may find that price per test is important. You may find subscription or disc or probe or reagent purchase cycle is important. You may find accuracy or precision or consistency is more important. Initial cost? Yearly cost? Maintenance? All these things are going to be different for each and every one of us.

What sort of hit me the other day is when someone on this forum said, and I forget who, but more or less along the lines is that I'm in no rush. I've been doing manual testing for ages now why rush to buy something that automatically does it in the first release cycle. I sort of sat there and said to myself....hmmm, isn't that the truth. Go figure.

Why I'd like one? I'm lazy. On my con list of owning a reef tank water tests is number one. Water changes is number two.

 

[mikedb]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I had no ideal MACNA was on right now, and will certainly wait for it to end before making a final decision.

To answer some of the questions above, I do indeed have a full Apex system (2x EB832, 3x DOS, 2x DDR, 3x FMM, 1x FMK) and am reasonably happy with it (the alarm and programing functionality is very primitive). However, like lighting, this doesn't seem to be a situation where there is all that much to be gained by staying in the Apex ecosystem. I don't foresee myself setting up automatic control of dosing based on test results (seems to risky to me), so it doesn't make a huge difference to me viewing results in the Apex app versus a third party app.

I performed a full round of testing last night:

• NO3: 2 ppm (NYOS + Red Sea)
• PO4: 0.04 ppm (Hanna)
• KH: 8.5 dKH (Hanna)
• Ca: 450 ppm (Red Sea)
• Mg: 1560 ppm (Red Sea- likely high)

I hadn't tested Ca and Mg for several months, and yet, by keeping alkalinity in range and using the balling method, Ca and Mg are running right on target. I'm really struggling to see the benefit of constant monitoring for those two parameters.

Am I crazy for making KH, PO4, and NO3 monitoring the priority? It seems to go against conventional wisdom. If everyone things I am on the right track, and nothing imminent is announced by MACNA, I will probably order the ReefBot in a few weeks.

 

[smartwater101]

Am I crazy for making KH, PO4, and NO3 monitoring the priority?

Definitely not crazy. For many of us, the "big three" are not Alk/Cal/Mag. The big three are actually Alk/P04/NO3.

I have an Alkatronic, and won't even consider another auto-tester if it doesn't include Phosphate and Nitrate. They're that important for long-term stability.

 

[rushbattle]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I had no ideal MACNA was on right now, and will certainly wait for it to end before making a final decision.

To answer some of the questions above, I do indeed have a full Apex system (2x EB832, 3x DOS, 2x DDR, 3x FMM, 1x FMK) and am reasonably happy with it (the alarm and programing functionality is very primitive). However, like lighting, this doesn't seem to be a situation where there is all that much to be gained by staying in the Apex ecosystem. I don't foresee myself setting up automatic control of dosing based on test results (seems to risky to me), so it doesn't make a huge difference to me viewing results in the Apex app versus a third party app.

I performed a full round of testing last night:

• NO3: 2 ppm (NYOS + Red Sea)
• PO4: 0.04 ppm (Hanna)
• KH: 8.5 dKH (Hanna)
• Ca: 450 ppm (Red Sea)
• Mg: 1560 ppm (Red Sea- likely high)

I hadn't tested Ca and Mg for several months, and yet, by keeping alkalinity in range and using the balling method, Ca and Mg are running right on target. I'm really struggling to see the benefit of constant monitoring for those two parameters.

Am I crazy for making KH, PO4, and NO3 monitoring the priority? It seems to go against conventional wisdom. If everyone things I am on the right track, and nothing imminent is announced by MACNA, I will probably order the ReefBot in a few weeks.

Definitely not crazy. For many of us, the "big three" are not Alk/Cal/Mag. The big three are actually Alk/P04/NO3.

I have an Alkatronic, and won't even consider another auto-tester if it doesn't include Phosphate and Nitrate. They're that important for long-term stability.

I test those three with Reefbot, and sometimes API Ca because it is cheap, accurate, precise, and I have room for the reagents. But I don’t need it, just the three important parameters. I test alkalinity daily, and NO3 and PO4 every three days just to save time and money adding reagents and emptying and refilling waste and RODI water. Keeping the tank stable is far easier with the Reefbot than it was before because I was unwilling to test so often manually.

 

[mikedb]

Definitely not crazy. For many of us, the "big three" are not Alk/Cal/Mag. The big three are actually Alk/P04/NO3.

I have an Alkatronic, and won't even consider another auto-tester if it doesn't include Phosphate and Nitrate. They're that important for long-term stability.

I test those three with Reefbot, and sometimes API Ca because it is cheap, accurate, precise, and I have room for the reagents. But I don’t need it, just the three important parameters. I test alkalinity daily, and NO3 and PO4 every three days just to save time and money adding reagents and emptying and refilling waste and RODI water. Keeping the tank stable is far easier with the Reefbot than it was before because I was unwilling to test so often manually.

Thanks to the both of you. I think that settles things for me- I am going to wait until next week when MACNA is over, and if there are no promising competitive announcements with imminent releases, I will be buying a reefbot.

Sounds like the typical use case is Red Sea Alk and PO4, API Ca and Tropic Marin NO3, so that's what I will start off with! It sure is strange that Reef Kinetics confuses potential customers with such a wide array of test kits options, when those four make the most sense for most customers.

 

[SVP]

You might want to consider the Xepta autobalance and xepta Abex which I know will be released for consumers by Coralvue at MACNA this weekend. While I have both Alkatronic and trident(it feels like a cheaply made toy but works so far surprisingly well) but agree completely with the gentleman smartwater101 who said the big 3 really are alk/P04/No3. These are my main focus as I dont worry too much about calc and mag(I dose alk,calc, mag) but those levels stay consistent. While not a perfect fit these Xepta products will test with probes not reagents alk/calc/mag/No3/potassium still leaving the leaving the "holy grail" of testing out but imo taking the lions share of testing off the reefers shoulders. I do believe that probes are the best way forward for auto testing. I've had the trident less than a month and have already burned through 2 alk reagents and the calc and mag I just replaced today at $44 a shot I'll be backing that down to the minimum amount allwowed tested daily 4 for all 2 for others. Just my .02

 

[SuncrestReef]

Full disclosure: I have been using a Trident since launch day, and I'm an Apex fanatic. So much so, that I wrote the 8-part Apex programming tutorial series here on R2R.

I really enjoy my Trident, but I honestly wish I could automate PO4 and NO3 testing as well since I still have occasional outbreaks of algae and have had trouble keeping Nitrates in check.

One thing I'll point out to those saying they only test Alk daily or weekly: Unless you test alk multiple times per day, you have no idea how much your daily swings actually are! If you only test once per day at the exact same time every day, you'd think your parameters are stable, but you'd be missing what really happens as the corals increase uptake during peak lighting. Here's a graph showing what Trident measured throughout the day, and what a once per day reading would have shown (in red):

I'm now using my Trident to control my 2-part dosing and have smoothed out the daily swings so there's only about 0.05 - 0.10 dKH variation at any time:

I did a lot of research into the ReefBot and really like the idea of using commercially-available test kits. While it's cool that it can test many different parameters, it's too bad the number of tests before needing refilling is so low for many of them. Additionally, I'm surprised at how long each test takes! (see the official chart below)
The Trident can run approximately 100 tests before needing to replace reagents, and each test takes between 10 - 20 minutes. Many ReefBot tests take well over 1 hour to complete:

Source: https://reefkinetics.freshdesk.com/...d-duration-for-each-test-brand-and-parameter-

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Full disclosure: I have been using a Trident since launch day, and I'm an Apex fanatic. So much so, that I wrote the 8-part Apex programming tutorial series here on R2R.

I really enjoy my Trident, but I honestly wish I could automate PO4 and NO3 testing as well since I still have occasional outbreaks of algae and have had trouble keeping Nitrates in check.

One thing I'll point out to those saying they only test Alk daily or weekly: Unless you test alk multiple times per day, you have no idea how much your daily swings actually are! If you only test once per day at the exact same time every day, you'd think your parameters are stable, but you'd be missing what really happens as the corals increase uptake during peak lighting. Here's a graph showing what Trident measured throughout the day, and what a once per day reading would have shown (in red):

I'm now using my Trident to control my 2-part dosing and have smoothed out the daily swings so there's only about 0.05 - 0.10 dKH variation at any time:

I did a lot of research into the ReefBot and really like the idea of using commercially-available test kits. While it's cool that it can test many different parameters, it's too bad the number of tests before needing refilling is so low for many of them. Additionally, I'm surprised at how long each test takes! (see the official chart below)
The Trident can run approximately 100 tests before needing to replace reagents, and each test takes between 10 - 20 minutes. Many ReefBot tests take well over 1 hour to complete:

Source: https://reefkinetics.freshdesk.com/...d-duration-for-each-test-brand-and-parameter-

When you smoothed out the alk, did you notice any change in the tank appearance? If so, what changed?

 

[Dilan Patel]

I love my reefbot. It can grow with my tank in terms of testing any parameter I want. Nice thing is you can use your own test kits and they are constantly improving which test kits can be used. Their customer service is top notch. I run alk, calc, nitrate and phosphate. They are working on a doser that integrates with the bot they are hoping to release it this year as well as bigger vials so you can go longer without having to refil the reagents.

 

[mikedb]

You might want to consider the Xepta autobalance and xepta Abex which I know will be released for consumers by Coralvue at MACNA this weekend. While I have both Alkatronic and trident(it feels like a cheaply made toy but works so far surprisingly well) but agree completely with the gentleman smartwater101 who said the big 3 really are alk/P04/No3. These are my main focus as I dont worry too much about calc and mag(I dose alk,calc, mag) but those levels stay consistent. While not a perfect fit these Xepta products will test with probes not reagents alk/calc/mag/No3/potassium still leaving the leaving the "holy grail" of testing out but imo taking the lions share of testing off the reefers shoulders. I do believe that probes are the best way forward for auto testing. I've had the trident less than a month and have already burned through 2 alk reagents and the calc and mag I just replaced today at $44 a shot I'll be backing that down to the minimum amount allwowed tested daily 4 for all 2 for others. Just my .02

Thanks for pointing this out! I wasn't aware of the technology at all and it sounds like very interesting if it works as advertised. Eliminating reagents sure would be nice.

Unfortunately, with a ±10ppm tolerance on NO3 (and no ability to measure PO4), I'm not sure it is the right solution for me.

Full disclosure: I have been using a Trident since launch day, and I'm an Apex fanatic. So much so, that I wrote the 8-part Apex programming tutorial series here on R2R.

I really enjoy my Trident, but I honestly wish I could automate PO4 and NO3 testing as well since I still have occasional outbreaks of algae and have had trouble keeping Nitrates in check.

One thing I'll point out to those saying they only test Alk daily or weekly: Unless you test alk multiple times per day, you have no idea how much your daily swings actually are! If you only test once per day at the exact same time every day, you'd think your parameters are stable, but you'd be missing what really happens as the corals increase uptake during peak lighting. Here's a graph showing what Trident measured throughout the day, and what a once per day reading would have shown (in red):

I'm now using my Trident to control my 2-part dosing and have smoothed out the daily swings so there's only about 0.05 - 0.10 dKH variation at any time:

I did a lot of research into the ReefBot and really like the idea of using commercially-available test kits. While it's cool that it can test many different parameters, it's too bad the number of tests before needing refilling is so low for many of them. Additionally, I'm surprised at how long each test takes! (see the official chart below)
The Trident can run approximately 100 tests before needing to replace reagents, and each test takes between 10 - 20 minutes. Many ReefBot tests take well over 1 hour to complete:

Source: https://reefkinetics.freshdesk.com/...d-duration-for-each-test-brand-and-parameter-

Thanks for the fantastic commentary and fascinating alkalinity data. I'm also a fan of Apex products. Your ability to reduce the swings is impressive, and as you point out, apparently not something that one could practically accomplish on a regular basis with the ReefBot. (Although, on an occasional basis I could always set up the ReefBot to measure Alk every two hours and refill the reagent the next day)

Thanks also for providing that table, by the way- I have never seen it before despite all of my research, and it is extremely informative- even as a way to see how many test kit refills to purchase and how many vials each test will require.

The ReefBot appears better-suited for once-daily testing, so the time required per test isn't too bothersome to me. It's a bit of a bummer that reagent refills are required almost weekly, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem for me.

I love my reefbot. It can grow with my tank in terms of testing any parameter I want. Nice thing is you can use your own test kits and they are constantly improving which test kits can be used. Their customer service is top notch. I run alk, calc, nitrate and phosphate. They are working on a doser that integrates with the bot they are hoping to release it this year as well as bigger vials so you can go longer without having to refil the reagents.

Thanks for the positive comments- some many of the ReefBot threads are filled with users trying to troubleshoot issues with their machines that it helps to be reminded of the 'silent majority' of users that are perfectly happy and didn't have issues.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On my end, I took a break from my daily NO3 and PO4 testing two nights ago while introducing a few new fish. Yesterday I arrived home to find a light dusting of dinoflagellates across my sand bed. Lo and behold, within 48 hours my NO3 level had dropped to 1 ppm and PO4 levels had dropped to 0.

I gave the livestock a double feeding, slowed down the skimmer, and culled the majority of cheato in my fuge (from baseball down to golf ball or less). If levels don't increase by tomorrow evening, I will start dosing NeoNitro and NeoPhos, and hopefully head off the worst of the Dinos.

Suffice it to say, I am very eager to get start automating my tests! Had I been alerted to the drop earlier, I believe I could have prevented the 'bloom' entirely.

 

[Dilan Patel]

I actually did have issues with the reefbot...but those issues were created due to my inability to trust my new toy. I thought the bot was testing my alk off by 1 dkh compared to my hannah which i have been using for years. Turns out the new reagent i was using with the hannah was completely off leading me to think my tanks dkh was lower then it actually was. The reefbot was actually testing accurately and precisely and really a lot of the errors happening with the reefbot are user errors. If yu actually do have an issue they will fix it quickly. Even will rewrite some of the programming if need be.

 

[SuncrestReef]

When you smoothed out the alk, did you notice any change in the tank appearance? If so, what changed?

It's probably too soon to say for sure, but it does seem like my SPS growth rate has increased and I see more consistent polyp extension.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It's probably too soon to say for sure, but it does seem like my SYS growth rate has increased and I see more consistent polyp extension.

Thanks.

 

[smartwater101]

will be released for consumers by Coralvue at MACNA this weekend

Shown? Or actually released? I can't find any info on pricing or release date.

 

[mikedb]

Since MACNA passed without any major announcements that would change my decision, I went ahead and ordered a ReefBot! Unfortunately they still claim a 2-week shipping delay, so I likely won't see it until closer to the end of the month.

In the meantime, I am doing by best to keep phosphates and nitrates in a reasonable range- which means feeding a LOT (I am up to 3 cubes daily). On Friday when my levers were still staying too low I did resort to dosing boht NeoPhos and NeoNitro, and since then levels have been on the low side of acceptable without further dosing and with continued heavy feeding.

These heavy feedings are timely, as I think I will need to catch my Melanurus wrasse and give him a time-out in the sump, as he is terrorizing my new Rhomboidalis wrasse.

 

[User1]

Definitely not crazy. For many of us, the "big three" are not Alk/Cal/Mag. The big three are actually Alk/P04/NO3.

Why do you think NO3/PO4 are more important? More curious because it used to be everyone wanted 0 and now we are starting to see just the opposite with awesome or thriving tanks with numbers on the positive side all over the map.

I think Alk/Cal/Mag are seen as more critical due to the fact they are required for a healthy reef over time as the tank matures. New tank they may not be as important so NO3 and PO4 take priority but over the year as aquarium, rocks, and coral mature and grow they lessen and ALk/Cal/Mag take over.

Just the way I see it anyway.